A container, oriental?

[amena]

I bought this container.
It seems older, and some parts, such as under the bird's nest, they are still gilt.

Both the lid and the body of the container have the two marks that you see in the picture.
One person told me that the writing is not in Arabic.
Is there anyone who can give me information about
Thanks in advance
Amena

[davidross]

On the right side of the mark is the number "90," which is definitely written in Arab numerals and would seem to indicate purity.

Sorry that I cannot offer more than that, but hopefully someone who can read Arabic can provide a translation.

I hope you won't mind if I mention that the term "Oriental" is now widely understood to be a pejorative relic of the colonial era. I don't think that the word "Orient" appears anywhere on a world map in any language, and I don't think there is any group of people anywhere who self-identify and respond positively to being called "orientals." I'm sure no offense was intended, and I hope this term will disappear from the Forum.

Regards,
David R

[WarrenKundis]

Amena and David,

Do believe that it is Farsi or Persian. Have shot off two images questing assistance from a friend who speaks both Farsi and Arabic. The floral motif is different from what we're usually seeing at 925 on Persian silver.

Warren

[amena]

First of all I apologize if someone may have been offended by the word oriental.
In Italian the words "oriente" and "orientale" have nothing offensive, but only a general geographic connotation.
However, I would be grateful if someone can suggest the correct word to indicate an artifact from the countries to the east of the Middle East.
I must add that, looking closely, I found two other very tiny marks, in the "nest" which are, however, very little recognizable.

I hope that someone can find some information
Best
Amena

[WarrenKundis]

Amena,

Dr Khan states that it is Farsi, the first word reading from right to left is something like QARABATH (closeness) but can make no sense what so ever of the second word.

Now the marks you've just posted are very interesting. The left one appears to be Arabic, the second one a human head in profile. In my limited experience the floral motif on your piece is not the usual Persian design, that being said Persia or Iran is a very large country that encompasses many other ethic groups who work in different styles. It leads me to ask the question whether it was produced in another Muslim country where Arabic is the dominate language, eventually finding it's way through Persia then into Europe where you have acquired it.

Forgive me Amena if I'm asking more questions than answering them.

Warren

[amena]

Hi Warren
The image of the tiny marks that I posted was a little blurry.
I tried to get a better picture of the round one.

I can not see a human head in this mark, but ......
Regards
Amena

[WarrenKundis]

Amena,

Would it be possible to just clean this mark? Have used the chewed wooden toothpick with silver polish on some of my own pieces to some effect. Hopefully it will bring out details we can identify.

Thamks
Warren

[amena]

Hi Warren
I've already cleaned as you suggest.
I'll try to make more pictures with light from different direction.

[davidross]

Hello Amena,

As I wrote before, I am sure that no offense was intended by the word "Oriental," and for my part, none was taken. In English, either "Arab" or "Middle Eastern" are preferable.

The second set of marks (from under the "nest"),are very similar to marks posted on another site that are identified as Egyptian, 19th century (probably indicating that they predate the Egyptian marking system of 1906). The square mark to the left, which on the container has the Arabic numerals "90," looks like a match to a mark on the other site for an "80" mark. I do not know if this is correct, but it offers a possibility that perhaps Warren or someone else can confirm or deny.

Best wishes,

David R

[WarrenKundis]

Amena and David,

Egypt is an interesting direction with possiblities. looking through a number of online images of various Perisan, Ottoman, and other marks was not finding anything that resembled my first impression of a right facing human profile. The pointed nose may be the start, Arabic ruling from right to left, of an Ottoman Sultan's turghra.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:tughra_of_Mehmed_V.JPG

If you open this link then scroll down to the 35th Sultan Mehmed V for example, his tughra or turghra has a smaller cartouche at two o'clock that describes an attribute of the Sultan such as compassion or piety. That may explain the lump that protrudes out from the larger mass.

Egypt was conquered by the Ottomans in 1517, Muhammad Ali Pasha effectively took control from them in about 1805. Were some of those marks still used after that date, certainly possible. If Amena is able to capture any of the extremely rough details from that mark we may be able to narrow down a possibility.

Warren

[amena]

I did my best to get clear pictures of the two marks in the "nest"
In the square mark it seems to me to see a 90 in Arabic numerals, which are also equal in the alphabet Persian

In the round one, perhaps you can see something that looks like the chicken mark, reported by David Ross, but it is a very vague resemblance.


However, it seems to me important to point out that a person who speaks Arabic (he is Moroccan ) asserts that the words in the round mark on the body of the container is not in the Arabic language, the language spoken in Egypt too.
Amena

[WarrenKundis]

Thank you Amena for working diligently on this. Images one and two do make the numerals stand out clearly. Image three although larger and clearer seems to shed no new light on identification, appears to be just too badly mauled.

Must ask, is image four from the same vessel we've been discussing? These three marks appear additional. Even image five has what appears to be the same mark from image three rotated 15 degrees but the second mark appears to be to the far right in image four. Please clarify.

And yes the Moroccan gentleman is correct as confirmed by Dr Khan, it is definitely Farsi. See Dr Khan's short remarks above. I'm going to throw this out for further comment, will get back to you.

Thanks again Amean
Warren

[amena]

Image 4 is the one to which Davidross refers as
  " marks posted on another site are Identified as Egyptian, 19th century "
Image 5 shows the comparison between the image 3 and the chicken from image 4.
Hope now the matter is more clear.
Regards
Amena

[davidross]

I have no dog in this fight as I cannot read Farsi or Arabic, so I leave it to others to make some final determination.

Regards,
David R