Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
hankdurschlag
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Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby hankdurschlag » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:08 am

Can anyone help me establish a date on this old Prussian Snuff Box. "FW" mark on top... marks include "FW", 12 (which constitutes the silver content), and FR which has me stumped. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

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hankdurschlag
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby hankdurschlag » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:26 pm

I believe this snuff box is linked to the Hohenzollern royal family.....

AG2012
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby AG2012 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:22 pm

Older Crown of Nobility - not royalty.

hankdurschlag
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby hankdurschlag » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:49 pm

I believe it is the mark of a Prince. The only example that I have found is Prince Heinrich of Prussia.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... 802%29.svg

Joerg
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby Joerg » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:29 pm

Do not overdo it, five peaks, nobility crown, lowest rank of nobility. No prince, no royal family.
Check the German Wikipedia.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangkrone

the corresponding English page is not so precise on the German crowns.

Regards
Jörg

R ingo
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby R ingo » Mon May 23, 2016 7:48 am

Hello hankdurschlag,

it is only a feeling, but there are some indications that let me think your box was made in Silesia.
I think "FR" is not the makers mark but the city mark. The use of letters ore letter combinations as city marks was common in Silesia. But there are about 10 citys beginning with "Fr..." .
Could you please make a shaper Foto of the mark left of the 12 (through a magnifying glass)?

Regards, Ringo

hankdurschlag
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby hankdurschlag » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:56 pm

I believe that the FR is that of "Gebruder Friedlander" who was the Court Jewelers for Princess Louise of Prussia from 1860 on.
Also the crown matches up with a previous Prussian Prince, Prince Heinrich of Prussia(1726-1802)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... (1726-1802).svg
I believe that this snuff box was a gift from Princess Louise to her brother then Crown Prince Frederich Wilhelm sometime between 1860 and the early 1870"s when my family acquired the snuff box. This matches the story that my father told me prior to his passing.

AG2012
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby AG2012 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:07 am

Hi,
Enthusiasm is not a method of judgment. Please read previous posts in regard of the crown in German speaking countries.
``Die alte Adelskrone des untitulierten Niederadels``
``Older nobility crown of lower nobility without titles``
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They do not have ``Graf`` or ``Freiherr`` title in the name, but simply ``von`` or ``am``.
Most of them have not been mentioned so far.
Moreover, this is not a royal gift (craftsmanship, embossing).
And last but not least, attributing ``FR`` to Brothers Friedländer is a speculation.
Regards

R ingo
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby R ingo » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:16 am

Hello hankdurschlag,
the box surely was made in the 18th century. Definitely it was made before the usage of the prussian "FW" tax marks (1809-1812). So your presumption, that the "FR" mark means "Gebüder Friedländer" is impossible.
Furthermore the letters under the crown are "JW", not "FW".
Regards,
Ringo

hankdurschlag
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby hankdurschlag » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:04 pm

This is the Royal Monogram of a Prussian Prince that I was referring to:
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The crown looks similar to the crown on the snuff box.
Thanks....

AG2012
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby AG2012 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:19 am

Hi,
There IS a difference between Grafenkrone and untitled nobility (the link again, pay attention to pearls).
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangkrone
But that`s of less importance in this particular case. The point is the quality of craftsmanship. Hohenzollerns are one of the oldest Royal houses and their fortune was enormous at the time, Prussia being among the most powerful kingdoms in Europe. They were prince-electors of the Holy Roman Empire (Kurfürst in German).
Their snuffboxes to compare with.
Examples from Hohenzollern museum.
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This box, bloodstone and gold, has 3000 diamonds.
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In short, your snuffbox is a nice 18th century example, but it cannot be attributed to any royal house and let alone to Hohenzollern.
Regards

hankdurschlag
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby hankdurschlag » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:39 am

Thank you so much for all the information. The lineage behind my snuff box is that is was not a ceremonial snuff box as seen in your examples. So it is not ornate or covered in jewels. I have been told by my ancestors that it was the personal snuff box that was carried in battle by Crown Prince Frederick Wilhelm (and that it had belonged to an ancestor of his and was extremely coveted by the Crown Prince) It was given to our family during the Franco-Prussian Wars (around 1870-71) after my ancestor aided the Crown Prince during a battle. I also have a Stanhope Cigar Cutter which was given to my ancestor at the same time. In addition, my ancestors were given a large sum of money that enabled them to come to the United States in 1881 and purchases a 3000 acre farm in Pennsylvania. The story that was handed down to me is that the snuff box, the Stanhope cutter, and the money came from the Hohernzollern Family and Crown Prince Frederick. My great-great-great grandfather made 2 trips back to Germany and remained in contact the crown prince (now German Emperor Frederick III until his death in 1888). My family were simply farmers in Germany/Prussia (not even landowners), so the ability to come to the US and buy an enormous farm was attributed to something. The Stanhope cigar cutter is a completely different story. The story that was told to me was that the cigar cutter was given to Crown Prince Frederick by his mother in law Queen Victoria of England. It was one of several Stanhope pieces that were given to the Queen at the London Fair in 1862 by the inventor of the Stanhope lens. My father passed a few years ago and I'm just trying to piece this together. Thank you guys so much for the information that you have provided. Anything else that you can determine is extremely appreciated.

huszas76
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby huszas76 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:21 am

Hello!
The crown can't prove anything in this case. It's just a regular noble crown, well known in the middle-Europe region.
There is some examples from Hungary, 19. century, different ages, different patterns, different cities:
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It it would be from a high-noble family, the crown would have more tails. 7 for the barones, 9 for the counts, end 11 for the princes.
Best regards!
Krisztián

hankdurschlag
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby hankdurschlag » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:40 am

Thanks Krisztian,
The only crown of a Prussian Prince that I found was that of Prince Heinrich 1726-1802....
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... 802%29.svg
This crown only had 5 points, so this confused me.
Thanks so much for the information.
Hank

R ingo
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby R ingo » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:09 pm

Hello Hank,
there is a difference between the crown on your box (older crown of lower nobility) and the crown from Prince Heinrich (older count crown).
Could you please make a shaper foto of the mark left of the 12 (through a magnifying glass)?

regards,
Ringo

Image

AG2012
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby AG2012 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:30 pm

Hello again,
Ringo summarized what I was trying to tell all the time.
Alte Grafkrone had ``fuenf Blattzinken`` i.e. five LEAF prongs, without pearls on two prongs.
Again, this is not a royal gift. Above examples are not ceremonial. Being enormously rich they had hundreds of luxurious snuffboxes scattered in every room. Friedrich der Grosse life in battle was saved by a box made of GOLD.
Good luck

Theoderich
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby Theoderich » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:48 am

I think it is Johann Friedrich Ritthammer (M1790-1815) in Neisse (Silesia)

hankdurschlag
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby hankdurschlag » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:02 pm

Your comment "I think it is Johann Friedrich Ritthammer (M1790-1815) in Neisse (Silesia)", is very interesting and based on some more research I've done makes sense. Why do you think this?
Thanks

Theoderich
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby Theoderich » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:03 pm

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Theoderich
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Re: Old Prussian Snuff Box - Need help dating

Postby Theoderich » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:35 pm

or it is Frantz Rodach
maker in Glatz / Neisse


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