Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

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silverfan
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Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by silverfan »

Hi,
this nice dish I saved from being melted. It is marked with 900M (M is supposed to be Gustav Memmert, Berlin) and Danish marks for Kopenhagen 1908 and assaymaster C.F. Heise. So one can assume that it was exported to Denmark. Does there exist any special import mark in Denmark?
Do you think my assumption is right? I found the item in Munich.
Regards silverfan

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Hose_dk
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by Hose_dk »

no difference in Danish marks (import - manufacture) my guess would be that its made for a dealer.
Bahner
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by Bahner »

Hello, agree with Hose - German product, later sold in Denmark. As to the M - am no longer sure that a M like that has to do with Memmert. I rather believe now what Tom once mentioned in a thread: that it possibly stands for millesime, which would clarify that the number is not just a production number but the fineness. Regards, Bahner
silverfan
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by silverfan »

900 stands for the fineness, but the number to the left 7624 is -I think - a production (not model !?) number. A number like this one finds on hollowware of known producers. Unfortunately the marks to the right of 900M are not legible.
To solve the riddle M behind fineness we have to find an item with a legible maker's mark.
Regards silverfan
Aguest
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by Aguest »

The leaves are representations of the Ginkgo tree leaves, a tree native to China but also found in Japan ::: The aesthetic movement of the time often incorporated elements of "Japonaiserie" (which is a general term of the influence of Japan on Western Art) and influenced Van Gogh among others :::

I would say certainly worth saving from the melting!!!
AG2012
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by AG2012 »

Hi,
Gustav Memmert has been discussed here:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/search.ph ... %2C+Berlin
Ginkgo biloba is very popular in Berlin, with monumental trees in Neukölln, Unter den Linden,Wannsee, Pfaueninsel,Friedrichshain…
Regards
silverfan
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by silverfan »

when turning over the leaves in "Silber aus Heilbronn für die Welt P. Bruckmann & Söhne (1805-1973)" yesterday eveningI happened to find on page 194 my item described as "Atelierentwurf Modell 7623, erstmals gefertigt 1901". Is No.7624 the bigger or smaler object?
Regards silverfan
silverfan
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by silverfan »

so I think it is now clear that M does not stand for Memmert but for millesime. What do others think about that?
Regards silverfan
AG2012
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by AG2012 »

Hi,
You are right about Bruckmann & Söhne. There are at least two gingko pattern bowls to be found. Lower fineness .800, though. It was die stamped and the die was obviously and exactly the same. Cannot be the coincidence and, besides, cutting steel for die stamping is very expensive and it`s done to produce many objects.
As you are aware of, there are many silver items exported from Germany with no maker`s mark, just import mark of e.g. Austria or Denmark in this case.
In a word, it is Bruckmann & Söhne. Mistery solved.
Regards
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silverfan
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by silverfan »

Hi AG2012,
you speak of two ginkgo pattern bowls. Are the patterns different or only the fineness? What about the two model numbers?
The question which I think is important for some forum-members, is if M behind 900 or 800 means Memmert or Millesime. What is your opinion?
MfG silverfan
AG2012
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by AG2012 »

Hi,
Compare every single detail - the same die, the same pattern (your dish and a bowl from elsewhere fully marked Bruckmann & Söhne).
Numbers refer to different sizes and models (e.g. handle).
I think it has nothing to do with Memmert, 900 M may really refer to 900 fineness.

In a word, your dish was made by Bruckmann & Söhne in .900 and exported to Denmark without maker`s mark.
Kindest regards
MfG
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silverfan
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by silverfan »

Thanks AG2012.
Pattern no. 7623 and 7624 (mine) have a bow (handle). What pattern no. has your "bowl from elsewhere" without bow? What diameter has it? I want to find out if my bowl is the small or the big one.
Regards silverfan
AG2012
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by AG2012 »

Hi,
Dimensions are: 9 cm tall, diameter 20cm. No numbers, just crescent and crown, 800, eagle.
MfG
silverfan
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by silverfan »

Hi AG2012,
my bowl: tall 6 cm without bow, diameter 11,5 cm. So there must have been at least 2 dies or perhaps even three. I suppose my bowl is the smallest.
Thanks again, silverfan
Goldstein
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by Goldstein »

Hi silverfan -
Bahner wrote:Hello, agree with Hose - German product, later sold in Denmark. As to the M - am no longer sure that a M like that has to do with Memmert. I rather believe now what Tom once mentioned in a thread: that it possibly stands for millesime, which would clarify that the number is not just a production number but the fineness. Regards, Bahner
Here a napkin ring from Riga - same marking.

X

Regards
Goldstein
silverfan
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by silverfan »

Thank you very much Goldstein. With your post I think you have cleared the long discussed question if the M behind fineness stands for the maker Memmert in Berlin. It does not. M stands for 1/1000 (Millesime).
Regards silverfan
AG2012
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by AG2012 »

Hi,
Moreover, 875 M was not struck but hand engraved, deep chiseling. No maker would have used this method for marking products.
This must be an exception for this napkin ring for whatever reason, and proving ``M`` stands for 875/1000.
Regards
silverfan
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Re: Dish with handle and ginkgo pattern

Post by silverfan »

For finally closing the discussion about the meaning of M behind fineness I want to call attention to the article of Martine D'Haeseleer "Belgian Art Deco Silver" in http://www.modernsilver.com where are presented a lot of photos and details which show the M in different examples.
So I think there is no question that M does not mean Gustav Memmert and the attribution to him in German Maker's Marks after 1886 can be cancelled.
Regards silverfan
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