Wagner 12 - maker/age help

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
mk209
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Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby mk209 » Fri May 03, 2019 7:21 am

I’ve had this tablespoon for a long time, when I bought it, it was covered in a poor condition silver plate! After lots and lots of polishing by hand it now looks a lot better. It’s very copper coloured hence it being plated at some point but I think it’s much nicer in it’s original state.

As usual help is required for the maker/location/age:

Image

Image

Thanks,

Matt.

silverfan
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby silverfan » Fri May 03, 2019 7:59 am

Your item is marked 12 that means 12 Lot = 750/1000 silver, so it is not plated but solid silver. Time frame: mid 19th century. Without town mark it is difficult to find the maker.
Regards silverfan

mk209
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby mk209 » Fri May 03, 2019 8:33 am

Sorry I should have been more clear, yes I know it’s silver but it was also silver plated to cover the high copper content. These high copper content spoons were common earlier in Northern Germany/ Danish border towns.

legrandmogol
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby legrandmogol » Sun May 05, 2019 12:33 pm

Hi, I am 99.9% positive that people didn't plate their lower purity silver in higher purity silvers so people would think their 75% spoons were 92.5%. Especially as you had merely to look at the other side of the spoon to see that it was actually 12loth. If anyone can correct on me this please do but that strikes me as nonsensical. The only time I can think of solid silver items being plated (besides vermeil) is the rhodium plating of jewelry so that it does not tarnish. Perhaps it is how your spoon tarnished that led you to believe it was plated?

legrandmogol
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby legrandmogol » Sun May 05, 2019 12:37 pm

OR, this just dawned on me, your spoon was perhaps lacquered to prevent tarnishing? Removing yellowed lacquer from silver is tough and does seem like are removing a layer of skin from the item. If you have lacquered piece I find placing it in very hot to boiling water over time helps it peel right off.

mk209
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby mk209 » Sun May 05, 2019 1:29 pm

I’ve collected silver for over 10 years now and I also work with silver and metals. Honestly this spoon was covered in silver plate. I know it doesn’t make sense but this was how it was.

It’s taken lots of polishing to get the plating off.

dognose
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby dognose » Sun May 05, 2019 2:09 pm

Hi Matt,

I hope I don't, and certainly don't mean to, insult your undoubted knowledge, but is it definitely silver? Its just that I'm reminded of this topic, which, unfortunately, the images have disappeared:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=20315&p=47023

Just wondering?

Trev.

dognose
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby dognose » Sun May 05, 2019 2:26 pm

I got interrupted writing the last post and didn't see Matt's reply. When I read it, it jogged my memory, I too had a silver spoon that was plated. I don't have an image to hand, except one of the mark, that does show slightly that it was plated:

Image

The odd thing about my spoon, is that the plating appears to have Chromium or a similar metal. I guess this was some misguided 20th century attempt to prevent tarnishing. If I come across the spoon I'll take some images of it, but at the moment I haven't go a clue where it is, but it does go to show that strange things happen sometimes!

Trev.

mk209
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby mk209 » Sun May 05, 2019 3:55 pm

The spoon was bought in the UK years ago and when I got it, it was very tarnished so I polished it up and noticed on the ‘Wagner’ that it looked copper coloured underneath. I polished off the silver plating and found the spoon was indeed very copper coloured.

The plating was silver, not chromium or anything else. It had been acid tested before I polished it. I just think it was plated at some later point to make it more silver coloured. Personally I like this spoon due to it’s colour it’s really nice.

Maybe at some point I can check what the silver content of the spoon is but it would be nice just to find out who the maker is and a date range.

Bahner
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby Bahner » Tue May 07, 2019 2:40 am

Hello, indeed some German flatware makers plated their 800 fine pieces to make it more shiny and "silver like". Plus it was easier to polish and it did not tarnish just as fast. Don*t know when they started doing this (before 1945 ? after ?) but it continued well into the 1970ies (maybe until today ?). But this was not done in the 19th century. So I wonder whether this copperish glow is not the result of the spoon having been exposed to some detrimental substance in the past. The name Wagner is quite common all over Germany and in other German speaking countries. But looking at the shape of the handle I would start looking in the Frankonia region of Germany (Nuremberg, Bayreuth. Neustadt/A. etc.). I would roughly date this to 1870, give or take a deacde. Regards, Bahner

Ubaranda
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby Ubaranda » Tue May 07, 2019 8:36 am

Hello!
I am sure that the spoon of mk209 was made of 12-lot silver and was made by the famous Lithuanian maker Krzysztof Benjamin Wagner from Vilno. Here about him and the examples of his marks:

Image

This Information from the book:
Image

Regards.

mk209
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Re: Wagner 12 - maker/age help

Postby mk209 » Tue May 07, 2019 9:00 am

Wow thankyou so much! Really appreciate your help, it’s a spoon I’ve had for a long time and I never knew anything much about it.

Really happy many thanks,

Matt.


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