Help needed with german spoon (Greiffenberg ?)

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
dinio
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Help needed with german spoon (Greiffenberg ?)

Postby dinio » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:56 pm

Hello,

I have an old simple spoon which is rather light (40 gr for 22 cm) and I do not find a right match between the hallmarks and my documentation. There is no maker's mark, only a 12 for silver purity and some animal in a circle (either a winged lion or a dragon) as a town mark. There is also a long zigzag assay stripe which is common for old central and north european old silver.

Here is the spoon:
Image

And here are the marks:
Image

My best guess if for Greiffenberg 1794, but I am not satisfied with the outline of the mark which is perfectly circular on the spoon and which looks like an ellips on my book (Wyler's).
I do not know if I am in the right direction or not and if it could be from other places (Luneburg ? Austria ?) nor I can guess the date - it looks rather old for me (before 1850).

Has somebody an idea in order to identify origin and date ?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Dinio

Bahner
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Postby Bahner » Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:50 am

Hello, Greiffenberg is one possibility (the mark comes also in a perfect circle), possible are also small towns from the Pomerania region of Germany (Stargard, Stolp). They used the same mark in a circle. Without a makers mark it is not possible to be more exact. I would date this around 1850/1860. Best wishes, Bahner

dinio
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Location: France

Postby dinio » Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:20 pm

Many thanks Banher !
Even if this spoon will remain unidentified for a while, I can conclude at least that it is German.
I agree whith your age estimation even if I thought that it was a bit older (say 1830-1850).

Thanks again for your help.
Dinio

Solpar
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Location: Apfelhausen, Germany

Postby Solpar » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:53 am

Here are other marks (19th century) from probably the same town (the upper mark is slightly different...). All three markers are not to be found in "Scheffler".

Image
Image
Image

Theoderich
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Postby Theoderich » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:44 am

Hallo and welcome Solpar,

if it is Greif(f)enberg - which Greif(f)enberg it is?
Greiffenberg or Greifenberg?

Image
Westpommern

Image
Niederschlesien

viewtopic.php?t=17606

Solpar
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Location: Apfelhausen, Germany

Postby Solpar » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:58 am

Dinio's spoon, as well as my second and third, are from Stargard i.P.
A master KURSCH can be found there.
What about H.SCHULLA? This marks is significantly different.

Image

Theoderich
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Postby Theoderich » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:46 am


JAKJO
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Postby JAKJO » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:37 am

Hi all,

Interesting, I had noted this griffin mark as Greiffenberg. I agree with you, Solpar, that the town marks are the same on the works of Kursch, E Steffen and E.K. or F.K. The Schulla town mark is different.

I have to more examples; C. Engelmann and ?. Peckruhn. I hope this helps to confirm the Stargard origin.
Image
Image

Best regards/JAKJO

Solpar
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:20 am
Location: Apfelhausen, Germany

Postby Solpar » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:55 am

Dear Jakjo, these are pretty interesting marks. Thanks for adding them.

Both silver smiths are not listed for Stargard in "Scheffler". Peckruhn not at all, but there is Eduard Gustav Carl Emil Engelmann (*1833, +1901)
who lived in Stettin. His widow (C.Engelmann) had a shop (also there) that was mentioned in 1903.

From my knowledge our pieces of silver should date from 1890 or earlier and are definitely not from Stettin.

Any ideas?

JAKJO
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Postby JAKJO » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:42 am

Dear Dinio,

Interesting facts! Could it be possible that the spoons are made by a Stargard maker (without a known mark) and retailed by Engelmann, Peckruhn, Steffen ...?

Stettin/Szczecin is not far from Stargard. And I have noted spoons like your one with this griffin and the "Tremolierstrich" and 12 without a maker's or a retailer's mark.

Best regards/JAKJO

silverport
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Hallmark Nuremberg «N», Fuerth «Descent Moon» ... in fla

Postby silverport » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:38 pm

Hello

An archaeologist found four wheels — in his scientific report he stated that he has found global wide oldest automobile. A reddish brown coloured part of earth between wheels was put in CT — but tomography let miss any indication of piston, electro-magnetic ignition …

In «925-1000» normally serious person state more and more often by presentation of recent time flags or artwork to have found hallmark’s place of origin — without any serious archive research in documents of hallmark’s origin area!

The «griffin» hallmarks e.g. need a very serious archive research in Pomeranians both sides of border. Until sounded result it seems to me now, could only be stated: «Pomeranian region».

Full name «maker’s mark» - at least from industrialization period on — were often only «retailer’s mark»! And sound on their name’s indication that object was made there could be a serious misinterpretation too.

E.g. famous wedding present to Grand Duke Wilhelm Ernst of Saxon - designed by Henry van de Velde - bear «maker’s mark» ligature «TM» by Th. Müller, Weimar. But in reality «Maker» was Koch & Bergfeld, Bremen!

Now I request these authors to sound by their recent flag interpretation e.g. Nuremberg’s «N», Fuerth’s «Descent Moon», Dresden and Leipzig «Crossed Sword» - to tell only a few town who had an own hallmark.

Kind regards silverport

Theoderich
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an other griffin mark

Postby Theoderich » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:28 pm

an other griffin mark is there
viewtopic.php?p=40339#40339

could it be Greiffenberg?

Theoderich
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Re: Hallmark Nuremberg «N», Fuerth «Descent Moon» ... in

Postby Theoderich » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:25 pm

silverport wrote:Now I request these authors to sound by their recent flag interpretation e.g. Nuremberg’s «N», Fuerth’s «Descent Moon», Dresden and Leipzig «Crossed Sword» - to tell only a few town who had an own hallmark.

Kind regards silverport


hallo Silverport
Image

Scheffler
townmark Stargard #810
E. Frick #819

This mark looks a little different - but this mark ist Stargard
The piece have engravings 1827.

Regards Theoderich

Theoderich
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Re: Hallmark Nuremberg «N», Fuerth «Descent Moon» ... in

Postby Theoderich » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:43 am

I find an other stargard mark
Friedrich Wilhelm Dumrath, born in Stralsund 22.1.1781, oo in Pasewalk14.7.1808, +28.11.1844
(ref. W.Scheffler Mittel+Norddeutschland p.405 Nr. 10)
Image

Traintime
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Re: Help needed with german spoon (Greiffenberg ?)

Postby Traintime » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:08 pm

Search references: "Griffin Encircled", "Griffon Encircled, "Gryphon Encircled", "Twelve (12) Encircled".


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