Captain spoons

[joho]

Hi Hose dk - forgot to mention spoons are 25cm long and each weighs 56 grams. John

[Hose_dk]

Indeed they are
Sworn Shipbroker in önigsberg it says, I have seen that engraving at a spoon on bib bib - I once tryed to buy.

[Hose_dk]

My k is lousy at the quayboard. Königsberg it is. Pilau Hagen & Co indeed that is also one.
fantastic the way the keep popping up - eep them comming, thanks.

[Harren1]

[quote="dognose"]Hi Hose,

I'm not sure about these, what do you think?





Trev.
.[/quote
Hi. I`ve just found a spoon that i have saved from early years,I must have thougt it was worth a penny!
It looks simular to your spoons in this discussion.
I`ve tryed to add some fotos of the spoon with no success, maybe i need your permission?
The spoon is made by gamper like yours, and the ingraving is Jens Koch in Libau 1814.
I will be more than happy to receive any information about my spoon.
Regards Harren1
Can you please tell me something about this object.

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

No permission required. After reading these two tutorials it should be plain sailing all the way:

How to Add Images

Posting Requirements

http://www.postimg.com is recommended.

Trev.

[Scotrab]

Hello Harren1,
I found your post only today. A previous post indicated that the maker of that spoon was the silversmith Christoph Heinrich Wilhelm Gamper, active in Courland from around 1818. There are at least three silversmiths with the name Gamper working in Courland around that time and without seeing the specific form of the mark it's difficult to attribute your spoon to a specific maker. However, if the date on it is really 1814 it cannot easily have been made by the same Gamper as the spoon in the earlier post.
Libau is called today Liepāja and is in Latvia. At the time of your spoon the Baltic countries were Estland (which became Estonia), Livland (which became Latvia) and Kurland (or Courland, parts of which went Latvia and parts to Lithuania). This rebirth of the Baltic countries, with various border rearrangements with respect to the original borders in existence since the Middle Ages and under the Russian Empire, took place mainly after the First World War.
Jens Koch was a "Kaufmann" (trader, merchant) and member of the Merchant's Guild in Libau. His signature is on various documents dated 1815 and conserved in the Latvian National Historical Archives.
If you can say more about the provenance of your spoon and if you can upload some clear photographs possibly I and other members can tell you a little more about it.

[Hose_dk]

Today an auktion ended. 8 spoons from various makers. The Robert K. we know and the Riga spoon as well. The museum inspector have evaluated as captains spoons. However one he was not sure of. The question is whether we can judge all Baltic Sea silver captains spoons just because they are now in Denmark or Sweden.
http://www.lauritz.com/en/auktion/otte- ... /i3073558/
It is possible to chose a approx translation of the text.
The images from this auktion will remail visible.

This rather unusual auktion ended a few days ago. Here we very unusual had 6 pieces. http://www.tradera.com/kaptensskedar-si ... _187017467
The images from this auktion will be delete in a few weeks.

[Scotrab]

This is a very good question, Hose!
Unfortunately I am not able to provide a reliable answer, but only the thoughts and ideas that I try to apply myself. By the way, the same applies for spoons from the Baltic you find in the Netherlands, not only in Denmark and Sweden.
The only way I have been able to use to determine whether a spoon is a genuine captain's spoon or not is to do research on the *name* of the person/firm on the spoon. For some of them it is quite easy: Kleyenstüber in Königsberg, Schröder in Riga, Clayhills in Reval/Tallinn. For others it is more difficult and I have to dig deeper in archives, some on the web, others in libraries and in museums. On occasion I have to write *real* letters and not e-mails! It is quite time consuming.
The spoons in the Lauritz auction are a good example. The first two (Image 1, from left) are Kleyenstüber spoons and the fourth Is Schröder. As you indicate, no problems there. The second and third spoon and the coffee spoons are more of a problem. The reverse of the second spoon has the name K. Poulsen (I think) and I can't read clearly the name on the front: S. Lattré???. If it is Zattré it is mentioned by Henning Henningsen in his paper "Königsberg- og Rigaskeer" for Königsberg. There is no town or maker's mark that I can see but there's a long "Tremolierstich". You will have seen that both names are *not* engraved in the usual way with dots, but are professionally engraved with nice writing. My impression is that K. Poulsen is the name of the person who *received* the spoons (Wedding? Christening?). If it possible to determine that the name on the front is really Zattré and the town/place where the person who received the spoon comes from, it is perhaps possible to find out whether the family/ies had maritime connections - and *then* decide that it is a captain's spoon.
The fourth spoon is in a slightly different situation. The maker's mark is indistinct and I haven't searched long enough in my references. You note, however, that this spoon and the Schröder spoon have the same initials J N K inscribed. It is therefore not unreasonable to assume that this is also a captain's spoon. I don't know what M 1818 stands for. It is certainly a date but for what?
I can't say anything about the coffee spoons. I have never seen a "captain's coffee spoon" but I remember reading in one of the papers from one of the museums in Denmark that there are examples of coffee spoons also being given to ship's captains.
The six spoons on the Swedish auction site are easier: B. Lorck & Co. was an insurance, financial and transport firm in Königsberg and can be found in several historical address books. Additionally, Hendrik Hachmer mentions the firm in his book "Met de groeten van Riga".
I don't think that I have contributed much to the solution of the problem, but I wanted to let you know that you are not alone in struggling with it!
Best regards from Scotland.

[Hose_dk]

This spoon is from Riga. P.B. Smit & Co 1805 (or 1800) Riga it says.
Smit is a shipping Company - excisting today. Established by Fop Smit in 1842. http://www.smit.com/about-us/company-pr ... story.html

Therefor this must be a previous Company as age is 1805(could be 1800 but most likely 1805)
Fop Smit could be one of them but more likely someone else. PB Smit & Co I have not been able to identify. Fop Smit worked in Rotterdam. P B Smit is it a Trading house? or are they in the shipping business?
At another www site I was helped with maker. Johann Friedrich Dorsch, born in Danzig 1748, worked in in Riga 1778-1815. widow continues business.

Any help with especially P B Smit & Co would be great.

[Scotrab]

Hello Hose,

I have been able to find a little more information on P. B. Smit & Co of Riga.

In the Swedish Newspaper Inrikes Tidningar of 14 October 1813 there is an announcement in German by C. Hollander (some kind of magistrate) advising creditors of P. B. Smit & Co. that they have until 21 January 1814 to submit their claims or they would lapse afterwards. Obviously P. B. Smit & Co. were in severe financial difficulties, were in the process of being wound up or had been wound up after bankrupt.

Perhaps not entirely coincidentally, there are records of a court case in London in 1816 regarding the validity of insurance covering the export of merchandise in July 1810 to P. B. Smit & Co. in Riga. At that time Riga was in the Russian Empire and Britain was at war with Russia. The merchandise was loaded in London on the Russian ship Fortune and she sailed In August 1810. Bad weather forced the captain to put into Memel, where the cargo was seized. The case came to court because the insurers thought that the insurance obtained by the British ship agent for a cargo destined to someone in a country at war with Britain was not valid. The judge thought that the insurance was valid. In the judgement there is no word regarding what happened to the cargo or of any compensation to P. B. Smit & Co.

I hope I have been able to summarise the case reasonably clearly: it is written in the legal English of the 19th century and since I have some difficulties in understanding the legal English of the 21st century I don't promise that I got it completely right!

Please note that I have also sent you a PM.

Best regards.

[Hose_dk]

This is great info. I have limited time myself - and result is more questions than answers. However I have taken a better Picture of prick engraving-

[Hose_dk]

Found one more on the internet. This one is from Königsberg 1783



Seems to be Johann Anthon Dornheim Königsberg - at least that what I see. Sorry that it is not my spoon.

[Scotrab]

Another interesting entry from Hose!
The spoon was made in 1785 by Johann Gottlieb Hantel in Königsberg (initials IGH, Scheffler no. 287, von Czihak no. 287), born in 1737, active from approx. 1769 until his death in 1790. He became a burgess of Königsberg in 1775. The date letter small-y is for 1785: it very difficult to distinguish on the photograph a 3 from a 5 in the pricked inscription!
There is an entry for Johann Anton Dornheim (without h in Anton, very common) in the sixth edition (1783) of the "Handbuch der Kaufleute oder Allgemeine Uebersicht und Beschreibung des Handels der vornehmsten Europäischen Staaten (Merchants' Manual or General Oversight and Description of the Commerce in the Most Important European Countries). His entry in the list for Königsberg describes him as "Kaufmann" (Merchant). This fits well with the date letter and with the pricked date.
I did not find anything else...
Best regards!

[Francais]

I ran across this article some time back, and wondered how many spoons like this I sold without knowing about captain spoons.
Well I almost tripped over one while looking for something in the bank.
I believe the maker is Koschinski probably from Warsaw (that is just a guess).
The front of the spoon says " Konigsberg 1817
The inscription seems to read " Christ(ian) Fried(erich) Dittrich Schiffs ????? in. I presume someone can read the penultimate word as it looks a little like Sleder to me, but I really can't think of what it would be.
Maurice

[Francais]

It was suggested privately that the word I missed is Mäkler. I had originally thought that but rejected it as I couldn't see the K. Now of course I see it is the only possibility, the K is just short.
So the inscription reads "Christian Friederich Dittrich Ship's broker in Konigsberg 1817. Later he became a commerce official for the state.
Now the only thing left is to determine the maker.

Thanks,
Maurice

[Hose_dk]

We can read this:
"In 1779, the construction of sailing ships started at Heinrich Harder & Co. In the early 19th Century, the first bathing establishment was opened in the village, and the first regular newspaper soon followed."

And that text I have found here http://www.worldportsource.com/ports/re ... rnu_91.php

Here we have a pdf http://lepo.it.da.ut.ee/~jbeyer/spoons.pdf
its about a silver and gold Smith Andreas Sperl working 1802 to 1841 in Pärnu - Pernau in the present Estonia.

Heinrich Harder & Comp in Pernau gave in 1825 a pair of spoons to someone. When I receive these spoons (in the near future) I shall post Pictures of them.
I bought the 2 spoons via the internet today.

[Hose_dk]

The 2 spoons are alike, one more worn than the other. But they are a pair.

Both spoons have the same prick engravement. Heinrich Harder & Co. Pernau 1825




The hallmarks are the same. Both spoons have nice and clear marks.

[R ingo]

Hello Hose,
here is the image of the spoon from Martin Krüger from Liepaja/Libau in Courland/Latvia and of the engraving.
The inscription is: Joh (than a high "n" on a line; that means a acronym for Johann) Bruno . Vahrenhorst (with circle over the a) : a Liebau . 1793
Kind regards,
Ringo

[Hose_dk]

Thanks
And a simpel Google on his full name gave a reference to the Family. This link will be a good start for some of our friends to this very early spoon.
http://www.deutschbaltische-kaufleute.l ... horst.html

[Hose_dk]

An auktion ended a few minutes ago. I descided not to bit but took the pictures.

Riga Fenger & co 1843


And the spoon.