spoon with unusual pattern from St. Petersburg

[R ingo]

Hello,

here is a russian spoon with an unusual pattern. the assayers mark is probably Ivan Yestigneev fom St. Petersburg. I would be glad abaut some informations about the pattern and the makers mark "S.F.".

Kind regards,
Ringo

[R ingo]

here is a better photo of the makers mark
regards,
Ringo

[Zolotnik]

Hi Ringo -
the only name I find in my sources is: Filander Samuel Zacharias from Finnland, working as silversmith in St. Petersburg, known for his spoons.

Regards
Zolotnik

[R ingo]

Hello Zolotnik,
I thank you for your help.

Thanks and kind regards,
Ringo

[R ingo]

Hello,
this is surely another mark from Samuel Zacharias Filander (here with the Austrian import mark).

Kind regards,
Ringo

[AG2012]

Austrian import mark? Yes, 1891-1901.But I have already accepted the statement there was no Russian silver exported elsewhere; huge domestic market and no need for export (cannot recall the post to quote but it was here only months ago).And I took it for granted.
Is this the first genuine import mark on Russian silver or faked Russian marks? If spoons were imported to Austria-Hungary, then other items must have been imported, too. I have seen Austria-Hungary import marks on Russian silver, but I thought all items they were fakes, as told here. Please let’s clear this issue and I will ask again; was there silver exported from Russia at the time and marked with import marks (e.g. Austria, France, and Britain with well established marking systems)?
Kindest regards

[Zolotnik]

Hi AG2012 -

An Import mark is stamped by the country in which the goods are imported!
An Export mark is stamped by the country from where the goods are exported!(Sorry - no tutorial :-)....)

I do not believe that Russian silver was exported in a big scale to Europe as we today understand "Export". But I know for sure (from old families and their records and traditions) that sometimes some objects were bought in Russia and sent back home - while the buyers travelled along in Russia and did not want to carry all their shopping goods with them or had to wait for completion if custom made. I have several of this objects in my collection (example: custom made cigarette case by H. Wigström/Fabergé ordered in St. Petersburg - after completion was sent to Austria-Hungary - got the import mark). Please remember that there were very wealthy people around who did not mind if they had to pay some customs and import fees.

If you find a simple, ugly made object with dubious marks plus a wrong export/import mark - than it is mostly a fake. It always depends on the details...

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

To my understanding too there was no actual "export" from Russia for the simple reason that the Russian "style" didn't sell well in Western Europe. Some Russian traders tried, in Paris and in London etc.. Among those Fabergé who opened a shop in London but it wasn't profitable enough and was soon closed. However, there was an actual export mark but not until 1908. Unfortunately I don't have a genuine mark only a drawing. Also note that the export mark was accompanied with a small size round hallmark with an oblique cross and of course a separate fineness mark. This standing oval export mark to the right is rather rare. I would like to see a genuine set of marks, thank you in advance.



On the other hand there was not either any major import to Russia. The Russians, however, imported a lot more than they exported.
I took a long time before researchers understood that this "ПТ" what not an unknown assayer(master but an abbreviation of "ПРИВОЗИЫХ ТАВАРОВ", simply meaning imported goods. This mark was used ~1882-1899. Before that imported goods had no master's mark only an assayer's mark punched on the Russian customs request. In addition, it might also carry a Russian mark but that was not a maker's mark but a wholesaler's or retailer's company mark/logo. Unfortunately often currently mistaken for being a maker's mark and the object Russian made, which is not unconditionally the case. Therefore it is always a difficult case when an unidentified mark looking like a maker's mark is found on an object with a Russian hallmark, a (company) logo or a maker's mark. The first actual Russian import mark looks like this:



As you see: A compound mark with fineness, town mark and the letters "PT".

The the next standing cut oval marks were used 1899-1908 (left) and 1908-1917(26) (right).



Note that the cipher in the left mark indicated the assayer (P is Aleksandr Romanov) while the cipher in the right mark, a Greek letter, indicated the assay office (Delta is Moscow) but not anymore the assayer.
When an exported or abroad taken object was brought back, "imported", to Russia, the process with marks became rather complicated with taxes, refunding and new marks some of them crossed etc. etc..a too long story to explain here, sorry. However, don't worry, this procedure was rare, rare indeed.

What is stated above among other things regarding Imperial Russian silver marks and marking is what makes it so interesting. Take my word for it.

Last but not least:
When you see on the market a Russian object with a Russian hallmark only but no maker's mark, it is manufactured wherever else but not in Russia irrespective of what the seller might tell you. It was strictly forbidden by law for the assayer to hallmark unmarked objects except for imported ones.

Prison in Siberia waited if he did and got caught...

I think I got out of topic now :O....sorry, but...

[Qrt.S]

A minor correction: The first import mark is from ~1882 not 1908, sorry.

[AG2012]

Thanks a lot, both of you. I am familiar with import marks in well established systems of hallmarking (e.g. Austria-Hungary, France, and Britain).Everything seems to be clear now; there was not a substantial export of silver from Russia. As far as I understand, if import mark is found on Russian silver it offers no proof in either way (pro et contra) by itself; meaning, everything else must be correct to judge if the particular object is made in Russia or not. This makes sense.
Thanks again

[Qrt.S]

No there was not any substantial export from Russia.

Please reread what I wrote about import marks, but once again;

1 . "ПТ" -hallmark is IMPORT 100% irrespective is there whatever other marks or not.
2. Only a Russian hallmark is IMPORT 100% (not only "ПТ" but any Russian hallmark before 1899)
3. Russian hallmark and an unidentified other "maker's mark or?" is import or not 50-50, needs more investigation of what is the "maker's mark", a logo or? This is the worst scenario!
4. Crossed Russian hallmarks after 1908, import or re-import, or?... Depends on the marks, needs more investigation of what marks are crossed.
5. What's left is called smuggling or other illegal actions.

Now it makes sense.

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -

to be more clear and understandable here are the photos of the marks:

Import mark



in this case: import to Riga, recognizable because of the town mark (under Russian rule). With town marks of all major Russian cities known.

Export mark 01



in this case: export from Moscow (town mark delta)

Export mark 02



in this case: export from Moscow (town mark delta)

Export mark 03 for small objects



in this case: export from Moscow (town mark delta)

Export mark 04



in use since 1992, in this case: export from St. Petersburg (town mark alpha)

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Correct regarding the import mark. It is the same mark I showed earlier.

However, only partly correct regarding the export marks.
The export marks 1's and 2's meaning is dependable of what are the other hallmarks on the objects. They must have at least one additional hallmark, what mark is that? It should be punched close beside the shown mark. Can you show it please? It should be the standing oval mark seen in pic.3 to the right, which is marked for export. If the not seen hallmark is crossed, it is an object imported back to Russia after being exported earlier. If it is not crossed, it is exported and half the process duty is refunded to the owner (as mark number 3).

What's left is export mark 4. What would make that an export mark?

There is no such mark in use as from 1992. It must be some kind of misunderstandig. The shown mark has only a scratch. The Russian export mark as from 2.10.1992 looks like this:

[Qrt.S]

Forgot to mention: The shovel shaped is for gold and the cut barrel shaped for silver, sorry.

[AG2012]

It seems there was substantial export to USA at the time:

The Russians make a specialty of enameled work in silver, which forms a large per cent of their export in silver, the principal part going to the United States, consisting of punch bowls, cups of various designs, card receivers, cigarette cases, candlesticks, saltcellars, Easter ornaments, icons, ladies' belts, napkin rings, spoons, etc., which are known over the world and purchased in considerable quantities by tourists as souvenirs, because of their distinctly Russian character. The Russians also excel in the manufacture of special ornaments in silver, with miniatures of Cossacks, horses, sleighs, and implements of war. Dealers here say there is no demand for foreign silver or plated wares; that Russian designs are satisfactory, and as labor is cheaper here than in the United States the homemade article is preferable. The only way to introduce American silver or plated wares in Russia will be by showing superior designs and making satisfactory prices.

W. R. Holloway,
Consul General.

St. Petersburg, March 7, 1902.

Source: Special Consular Reports - Issues 22-23 By United States Bureau of Foreign Commerce, United States. Dept. of Commerce and Labor. Bureau of Statistics, United States. Bureau of Manufactures - 1902

http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 494#p74494" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dognose]

This post also, is not without interest: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 38&t=19267" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

also:

Among those Fabergé who opened a shop in London but it wasn't profitable enough and was soon closed.

Now, I've never really examined the full details of Fabergé's departure from London, but I've always thought that they left, not because of a lack of popularity of their products, but because of the long-running dispute with the Goldsmiths' Company which ended up with their famous court case in 1911. The problem, in a nutshell, was that gold and silver goods sold in the UK must bear UK hallmarks. Fabergé, of course, were importing their wares from Russia, and as a majority of their imports were enamelled, these pieces could not tolerate being struck with another set of hallmarks without damage being done to the piece. Goldsmiths Hall suggested that Fabergé should send the unfinished pieces over to the UK to be assayed and struck with their marks, and then returned to Russia for enamelling, and then be returned for sale in London. Needless to say, for Fabergé, this was unacceptable, and so Qrt.S is, in a way, correct, it wasn't profitable enough, but not for reasons of popularity, only for reasons of the law.

Trev.

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -

as a collector I have many import marks but not one export mark in my collection! :-)

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Yes, dognose's comment is correct. Fabergé was a not a good example but there were other exporters who tried exporting Russian made objects but failed due to the different outlook or taste.

[Goldstein]

Hi -

what a statement! Remember the boom after Russian enamel after the exhibition in Chicago world fair and in Paris. All the famous enamel artists made much money. In wellknown American and European collections you can find all this stuff - not on eBay....
This fruitful development was stopped by WW I and after WW I was a revolution in Russia - no silver etc. Remember?

Goldstein