Ovchinnikov

[madej]

Hello .What do you think of these hallmarks ? Authentic ? Fake?
For better quality, please click on the image

[madej]

And the images of the whole object

[Goldstein]

Hi madej-

never in my life have I seen Ovtschinnikov - and Khlebnikovmarks together on one object - or have you seen a BMW with a Mercedes star?
And 2 French import marks next to each other. Faker´s overkill!

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hi,
Take a closer look at ``Ovtschinnikov`` mark. Whoever cut the mark was completely ignorant of Cyrillic alphabet.
In a word, as already said, faked marks.
Sorry.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

Where do you see the Ovchinnikov mark? I read incorrectly spelled Khlebnikov

[AG2012]

Hi,
Yes,anyway first letters are utterly misspelled, beyond deciphering.
Have a nice evening.

[madej]

Sorry,of course, supposed to be a Khlebnikov.

[Dad]

Hello .What do you think of these hallmarks ? Authentic ? Fake?

Hi.


Hallmarks on this photo look like original. Khlebnikov 1908-1917

[Dad]

You can show a photo "top view"?
How the dish to "leg" fastens?

[madej]

[Goldstein]

Hi Dad -

Please have an exakt look at the lettering "Khlebnikov" . In this form it was always associated with the eagle of the court jeweler, the corners were never rounded. The ИX is completely wrong (image character ), the corners may not be rounded also. The control mark is too large and oval instead of round. The French import marks exist twice - in different sizes. All together very strange
Unfortunately I can not upload some photos - tinypics is down!

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

I'm not so sure anymore that the spelling is incorrect. The mark is too unclear. Khlebnikov, in Russian ХЛѣБНИКОВЪ, wrote his name using as E the later abandoned letter ѣ (yat) and that might disturb a bit as well as the bad punch of a long mark on a convex surface. However, as Goldstein mentioned the court supplier mark is missing and it should be located either left of or above the name. The frame's corners are rather round and that is disturbing. The ИХ mark looks rather good to me also the mini kokoshnik right of it. What is of interest is the length of the big kokoshnik. Could you madej use a caliper an give us its exact measure in millimeter? The french marks (?) has no particular value in this context.

[Dad]

Hi Dad -
Please have an exakt look at the lettering "Khlebnikov" . In this form it was always associated with the eagle of the court jeweler, the corners were never rounded. ...

Look to the round punch located to the left of the oval "troynik". It can be the eagle of the court jeweler.

I am interested: how the bowl to a leg fastens? It is soldered or the screw?

[Qrt.S]

@Dad,
The mark left of the kokshnik is not the court supplier mark but a kokoshnik looking right in a round frame. I enhanced the picture and I aimed to show it but Tiny pic doesn't work at the moment.

[Dad]

@Dad,
The mark left of the kokshnik is not the court supplier mark but a kokoshnik looking right in a round frame. I enhanced the picture and I aimed to show it but Tiny pic doesn't work at the moment.

I do not see "kokoshnik". But.

It isn't necessary to guess. It is necessary to clean and to look. ))

[AG2012]

Hi,
It seems this marks was far from being perfect.
A discussion on Russian forum regarding a suspicious mark shown here;

Is this mark suspicious? Вызывает ли сомнение данное клеймо?



No, there are worse... нет, есть еще хуже...

…and even worse… ... и даже еще хуже...

[Qrt.S]

@Dad
Since Tiny pic is out, I sent you an email. Take a look on it and you will see the kokoshnik.

[AG2012]

Hi,
There are bolts here. I have noticed in faked items bolts always had modern pitch (the distance from the crest of one thread to the next). Namely, before standardization, in so called ``old screw cut`` pitch distance was visibly longer than in modern screws (less crests per one cm or inch).
Metric threads were mostly unified in 1898 by the International Congress for the standardization of screw threads. Old pitch was used in Russia much longer (until 1924) when metric system was introduced.
Comparison is shown here: bolt from a Russian centerpiece, second half 19th century (left) and metric bolt (right). The difference can be seen with naked eye.
What I mean, one cannot expect modern bolts on Russian silver. Counting crests is hopeless, because they must have been calculated in obsolete дюйм (inches): just make sure (if possible) the bolt has longer distance between crests.
But that`s beyond close examinations most collectors would do. There are old cutting tools to be found, but that`s beyond what fakers would do and bother about.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi all -

The experience (if you have it) shows that companies or manufacturing brands were never attached to a prominent place, but always discreetly in unobtrusive places. If necessary, exposed parts were only stamped with a small checkmark. In the shown piece the underside of the stand is completely unmarked - this would normally be the place where one would find the full company name - there is enough space and it does not disturb the aesthetics of the object.
In the case of counterfeiting, it is always noticed that the stamps are clearly visible in the middle of the respective object - the inexperienced customer should immediately discover them. As the past shows this works very often - because of the many fakes which are in the trade, the eye has already become accustomed to this view and considers it correct. The opposite is the case!
A visit to the relevant museums or a well-stocked collections confirms these observations. Since meanwhile also reputable auction houses sell counterfeits (already there are several criminal proceedings because of fraud) it is always difficult for the layman to distinguish between genuine and false. Even in this forum there is already a certain uncertainty.Therefore, I recommend again and again: buy nothing of which you understands nothing!
Make yourself acquainted before buying - not afterwards!

Regards
Goldstein

[madej]

Hello again . It is possible to determine the authenticity or fake of the object after these pictures?