Gratschev as importer....

[Goldstein]

Hi all -
Gratschev did not only manufacture himself but also used subcontractors and imported silver from Germany. This silver exported to Russia (via Riga) bore a discreet silver stamp: a cock capercaillie for silver 800/1000 and a standing bear for silver 875/1000 - each in a rhombus.
This spoons were seemingly very popular - especially in Warsaw - where it was sold by different companies. Unfortunately, I can not say if it was in-house productions or importware. In any case I have never found any import marks on these objects - maybe they were removed.


Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

In any case I have never found any import marks on these objects - maybe they were removed.

The marks on goods imported to Russia has been discussed before, please read these links:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... ds#p129409 and
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... ods#p93425
Please use the search function and you will find more. The same fact can be found in Postnikova #56 and #57

Nonetheless, on the picture you show is clearly seen the first Russian import mark implemented according to the Assay Charter of February 9, 1882 and was used to the beginning of 1899. Your spoons are clearly imported. However, for a long time it was believed that the the letters ПТ on the hallmark was an unknown assayer but then it became clear that they meant "ПРИВОЗНЫХ ТОВАРОВ" i.e. "Imported Goods". As from 1899 a new import mark was implemented, a standing oval kokoshnik with a cut lower end looking left. As from 1908 a similar kokoshnik but looking right. In 1927 the again the same mark but with a "rabotnik" and promille.

Before 1882 imported goods can be identified having only a hallmark but no maker's mark. This is also explained in the first link above. Sometimes imported goods didn't have any maker's or export marks marks at all. Sometimes as well a hallmark, no maker's mark but the importer's trade mark or logo.

.....or do I misunderstand something in your wondering?

[AG2012]

Hi,
What`s this mark, please ?
Thank you.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

The bear has nothing to do with Russia or its marks. It could be the exporter's mark, logo, maker's mark in the exporting country, who knows? I remember that this bear in a rhombus has been discussed here before but no answers have been found only that it is rather often seen in connection with Riga. What is well known is that Russia imported a lot from Germany via Riga and St Petersburg as you also mentioned. The bear could represent e.g. Berlin or...? I really don't know. Try the search function.

[AG2012]

German maker ? I cannot recognize it.

[Qrt.S]

I wrote could (vielleicht)! And as I stated nobody has identified it as for now. There are still lots of unidentified silver marks, not only Russian ones but also German and other countries' too.

[dognose]

We have seen the 'Bear Mark' in connection with silver from Roumania imported into Russia:



Trev.

[Goldstein]

Hi dognose -
to be correct: the spoon was probably made in Germany (maybe the German collectors know the real manufacturer) and imported via Riga to Roumania.
Silver content according to the standing bear: 875 - not common in Roumania. I think (pure speculation) it was intended in first line for the Russian market but sold to Roumania. Why they sold no silver in 800 fineness I do not know - maybe this spoon was only in 875 fineness available (for the Russian market).
That is the story the marks tell!

Regards
Goldstein

[dognose]

Hi Goldstein,

Many thanks for the likely explanation.

Trev.

[AG2012]

Rumanian 1906-1926 spade shaped punch and 'II' between the fish indicates 800/1000 silver standard.
There were three standards at the time: .950 was too high, .750 was too low, so .800 was a compromise.
We have not seen Romanian import mark, have we?
The assumption: the same (probably German maker) officially imported to Russia and then found its way to Rumania without being officially traded and the owner had it marked. I have seen that practice elsewhere: owners simply wanted domestic marks for whatever reason and assay offices provided the service. Without import punch available, domestic silver mark was used.
Still, bear mark remains a mystery.

[Goldstein]

Hi -
Unfortunately, I know little about the actual export of German silver to Riga and from there on to Russia. Also, which German manufacturers have been significantly involved in it is not known to me - surely only that there is a large trading volume with Riga. From there, the trade with Russia was made. Maybe our German cutlery collectors know more about these trade relations. In any case, the delivered items were not marketed with the German companies logos but with the "coded" cock capercaillie or the standing bear. So there was enough neutral space for own stamps.
The question arises why excreted cock capercaillie and standing bear were used. An explanation attempt: Switzerland supplied almost the whole world with excellent pocket watches in steel, silver and gold. Silver depending on the delivery country in 875 and 800 silver content. For this there were uniform brands: standing bear 800, cock capercaillie (Auerhahn) 875 silver content. The market, traders and buyers were familiar with these brands - so they were taken over. Since the marks are very small and usually discreetly applied, they completely escaped most people.
Now it would be interesting to know which German manufacturers have worked for this important market. Maybe there is some feedback from the German section....


Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hi,
But being in lozenge (rhombus) makes it completely different from Swiss bear.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi AG1220 -

of course it is different . otherwise it would be the same!
Much of my article is speculation and needs to be clarified. But these are the things I noticed - these are not coincidences! I am open for plausible explanations and would be glad if someone could satisfy my curiosity!

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

The bear has nothing to do with Russia or its marks. It could be the exporter's mark, logo, maker's mark in the exporting country, who knows? I remember that this bear in a rhombus has been discussed here before but no answers have been found only that it is rather often seen in connection with Riga. What is well known is that Russia imported a lot from Germany via Riga and St Petersburg as you also mentioned. The bear could represent e.g. Berlin or...? I really don't know. Try the search function.

In any case I have never found any import marks on these objects - maybe they were removed.

The marks on goods imported to Russia has been discussed before, please read these links:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... ds#p129409 and
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... ods#p93425
Please use the search function and you will find more. The same fact can be found in Postnikova #56 and #57

Nonetheless, on the picture you show is clearly seen the first Russian import mark implemented according to the Assay Charter of February 9, 1882 and was used to the beginning of 1899. Your spoons are clearly imported. However, for a long time it was believed that the the letters ПТ on the hallmark was an unknown assayer but then it became clear that they meant "ПРИВОЗНЫХ ТОВАРОВ" i.e. "Imported Goods". As from 1899 a new import mark was implemented, a standing oval kokoshnik with a cut lower end looking left. As from 1908 a similar kokoshnik but looking right. In 1927 the again the same mark but with a "rabotnik" and promille.

Before 1882 imported goods can be identified having only a hallmark but no maker's mark. This is also explained in the first link above. Sometimes imported goods didn't have any maker's or export marks marks at all. Sometimes as well a hallmark, no maker's mark but the importer's trade mark or logo.

.....or do I misunderstand something in your wondering?

Are you sure you know what the topic is in my contribution?

Goldstein

[Dad]

Are you sure you know what the topic is in my contribution?

Hi,

Anyway, on your spoons (the first message) the import mark of Petersburg assay office. Not Riga. ))

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
Yes, in your first message you claim that the Russian import mark is missing or removed. You got the answer, it is not missing. Then you suddenly changed the subject to the bear and capercaillie. They are are most likely, as you also assume, export marks of unknown origin. But that was not the point in your first input. Please reread your question!

[Goldstein]

Hi Dad -

as you know - nonRussian silver was mostly via Riga exported into Russia and was there localy as import marked - St. Petersburg in St. Petersburg - Moscow in Moscow etc. See the 6 spoons - nobody speaks of Reval importmarks - I spoke about Reval as the entrance gate for foreign silver to Russia.

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

This spoons were seemingly very popular - especially in Warsaw - where it was sold by different companies. Unfortunately, I can not say if it was in-house productions or importware. In any case I have never found any import marks on these objects - maybe they were removed.

Two sentences even you can understand - now you must try to get the contex!
I ask again : Are you sure you know what the topic is in my contribution?

Goldstein

[agphile]

Hi Goldstein

I am not sure your point is as easy as you think to understand on first reading of your original post. Are you saying that spoons of the same pattern but marked by other companies than the Grachev Brothers were very popular, however you cannot tell whether they were locally made or imported? (Presumably because they lack anything like the bear export mark.) And is this simply a comment, or a request for any relevant thoughts or information?

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein,
Well Goldstein that's it, English seems to be a too complex language for you. This is not the first time a person with a native English tongue has a remark to make regarding your English. Try to improve a bit next time you write something instead of blaming others for not understanding what cannot be understood uniquely.