For better quality please click on the image
Faberge hallmark -cellar
Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi. What do you think of these hallmark?
For better quality please click on the image
For better quality please click on the image
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Please polish all your silver objects! It hurts to see fine objects in awful condition. Nonetheless, this is an interesting salt cellar but I believe that the inner glass part might be missing. Anyway, the cellar is in my eyes for once a genuine Fabergé.
The assay mark is from St Petersburg 1882-1898. The cellar is made by I.P., i.e Isak Abramovitsh Rappoport (1884-1916), one of Faberge's leading masters. He was born either 1851 or 1864 in Datnov in the Kaunas/Kovno district in Lithuania, apprentice 1880 in Berlin and opened a workshop in March 1. 1884 in St Petersburg in Ekaterinsky canal 65 when he also became master and merchant of the second guild. In 1890 he turned to Christianity and changed his forenames to Julius Alexander. He retired in 1900 and left his workshop and equipment to his workmen for their long and faithful service. Julius Rappoport passed away in Petrograd 1916 or 1917. He was indeed an interesting person.
The assay mark is from St Petersburg 1882-1898. The cellar is made by I.P., i.e Isak Abramovitsh Rappoport (1884-1916), one of Faberge's leading masters. He was born either 1851 or 1864 in Datnov in the Kaunas/Kovno district in Lithuania, apprentice 1880 in Berlin and opened a workshop in March 1. 1884 in St Petersburg in Ekaterinsky canal 65 when he also became master and merchant of the second guild. In 1890 he turned to Christianity and changed his forenames to Julius Alexander. He retired in 1900 and left his workshop and equipment to his workmen for their long and faithful service. Julius Rappoport passed away in Petrograd 1916 or 1917. He was indeed an interesting person.
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Thanks. The cellar is not mine but I have the opportunity to buy it and therefore I want to make sure of its authenticity. [Text deleted by moderator - please read our forum rules]
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi,
It does look authentic because of design, heavy gauge silver and marks. Besides, I trust Qrt.S judgement.
On the other hand, take care what you pay for it. The cellar is not an exquisite Faberge and not every Faberge is extremely valuable.People were often disappointed having given Faberge small tableware to reputable auction houses.
Still, the cellar is really beautiful.
Regards
It does look authentic because of design, heavy gauge silver and marks. Besides, I trust Qrt.S judgement.
On the other hand, take care what you pay for it. The cellar is not an exquisite Faberge and not every Faberge is extremely valuable.People were often disappointed having given Faberge small tableware to reputable auction houses.
Still, the cellar is really beautiful.
Regards
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Yes madej, pay attention to AG2012's comment above!
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi madej -
I do not want to interfere in the discussion of the experts here in the forum - who certainly all possess some Fabergé objects and therefore know what they say. I assume that they will refund you the finacial damage if you have to determine that the purchased piece is a simple fake!
Your questions about Russian silver in general and Fabergé in particular, I understand that you are largely a layman. The topic is very complex and can not be handled by the way - especially Fabergé requires a lot of knowledge and experience! As you know for sure, or soon you'll know, the market is full of fakes - some primitive ones- easy to detect - some are very elaborate faked - only detected with some knowledge.
Unfortunately, I can not give you this knowledge in a few written lines - just so much: use your common sense! And if you have doubts - move on.
Just to make clear what I want to say:
The marks on your Fabergé object (Fabergé was known for his exeptional quality, beauty of details and craftsmanship) are crude, sloppy and wrong
Just have a look at the 88 - or the name - even you and I could do it better!
Here some authentic marks from my collection - Note that the stamps are in reality not larger than a few mm! Compare to your monster mark...
The firm of Fabergé not only worked for the Tsar and the Nobles -they sold their goods to everybody - simple as well as elaborate things - from household articles to jewellery.
Here some "ordinary" objects - but always top of the notch:
Maybe I could be of some help -
Regards
Goldstein
I do not want to interfere in the discussion of the experts here in the forum - who certainly all possess some Fabergé objects and therefore know what they say. I assume that they will refund you the finacial damage if you have to determine that the purchased piece is a simple fake!
Your questions about Russian silver in general and Fabergé in particular, I understand that you are largely a layman. The topic is very complex and can not be handled by the way - especially Fabergé requires a lot of knowledge and experience! As you know for sure, or soon you'll know, the market is full of fakes - some primitive ones- easy to detect - some are very elaborate faked - only detected with some knowledge.
Unfortunately, I can not give you this knowledge in a few written lines - just so much: use your common sense! And if you have doubts - move on.
Just to make clear what I want to say:
The marks on your Fabergé object (Fabergé was known for his exeptional quality, beauty of details and craftsmanship) are crude, sloppy and wrong
Just have a look at the 88 - or the name - even you and I could do it better!
Here some authentic marks from my collection - Note that the stamps are in reality not larger than a few mm! Compare to your monster mark...
The firm of Fabergé not only worked for the Tsar and the Nobles -they sold their goods to everybody - simple as well as elaborate things - from household articles to jewellery.
Here some "ordinary" objects - but always top of the notch:
Maybe I could be of some help -
Regards
Goldstein
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Typical Goldstein comment: "Not in my collection = fake!" No more comments.
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi -
you are right - marks like that you will not find in my collection.
Polemics does not help any further - there are sound knowledge and facts that count.
By the way, one should also assume a certain responsibility for his statements - a healthy ego is ok - but grandeur and ignorance?
Goldstein
you are right - marks like that you will not find in my collection.
Polemics does not help any further - there are sound knowledge and facts that count.
By the way, one should also assume a certain responsibility for his statements - a healthy ego is ok - but grandeur and ignorance?
Goldstein
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi,
To be honest, I did not like ``88`` but attributed it to high magnification of macro mode.Besides, based on pictures, cellar is really of exceptional quality, although I am not very fond of this ornate eclectic design.
In this particular case electronic tester might be conclusive. They are highly sensitive up to two decimal points accuracy and very low +/- error.
916,6/1000 is rare alloy (88 zol) and it`s very unlikely to be obtained and used by fakers.
Regards
To be honest, I did not like ``88`` but attributed it to high magnification of macro mode.Besides, based on pictures, cellar is really of exceptional quality, although I am not very fond of this ornate eclectic design.
In this particular case electronic tester might be conclusive. They are highly sensitive up to two decimal points accuracy and very low +/- error.
916,6/1000 is rare alloy (88 zol) and it`s very unlikely to be obtained and used by fakers.
Regards
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi,
For what it is worth I believe the kokosnik to be dubious . A silver test may not be conclusive as 88 zolotnik means minimum 916/000 or higher and it could be 925/000 / sterling ( 90 zolotnik = minimum 937/000). Let us wait for our Russian contributors; Dad & Olga and/or other to give their opinion.
Best,
Peter
For what it is worth I believe the kokosnik to be dubious . A silver test may not be conclusive as 88 zolotnik means minimum 916/000 or higher and it could be 925/000 / sterling ( 90 zolotnik = minimum 937/000). Let us wait for our Russian contributors; Dad & Olga and/or other to give their opinion.
Best,
Peter
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
I suppose ``dvoinik``with ``88`` if referring to the original post. No misunderstanding.....the kokosnik to be dubious
Regards
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi AG2012 -
let me repeat what you sure allready know:
Russian punches go deep into the metal - they are not "raised"!
Example: a stamp from Tiffany (enlarged) -you can see how precise and clear - though only several mm large.
The from the OP shown mark:
The letters are "raised"!
Another fake mark with "raised" letters
Correct mark - deep:
Original, authentic marks in original size:
Regards
Goldstein
let me repeat what you sure allready know:
Russian punches go deep into the metal - they are not "raised"!
Example: a stamp from Tiffany (enlarged) -you can see how precise and clear - though only several mm large.
The from the OP shown mark:
The letters are "raised"!
Another fake mark with "raised" letters
Correct mark - deep:
Original, authentic marks in original size:
Regards
Goldstein
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
@AG2012
Sorry indeed no kokoshnik but dvoinik with 88 to be dubious
Cheers,
Peter.
Sorry indeed no kokoshnik but dvoinik with 88 to be dubious
Cheers,
Peter.
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi -
there is a Fabergé catalogue at the top of the Russian section and you can find some typical salts:
[/quote]. All without a handle of course!!!
A genuin, authentic Fabergé salt:
Regards
Goldstein
there is a Fabergé catalogue at the top of the Russian section and you can find some typical salts:
[/quote]. All without a handle of course!!!A genuin, authentic Fabergé salt:
Regards
Goldstein
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
I said I wouldn't make any further comments but since it seems to that certain facts are overseen or forgotten (again), I find in necessary to add the following explanation:
Remember that objects had to be taken to the assay office unfinished and in parts. When the maker and assayer punched their (sometimes worn) punches on the cellar's outside bottom, it caused an impression mark on the inside. When assayed the object was brought back to the workshop to be finished, the impression marks were badly visible and had to be removed, a common process. That was done by "hammering" the bottom from the inside against an iron "anvil". Silver is as very well also known softer than iron and hammering from inside keeping the marks against the anvil damaged partly the marks on the outside. That is the reason why they look "distorted/blurred" nothing else.
Remember that objects had to be taken to the assay office unfinished and in parts. When the maker and assayer punched their (sometimes worn) punches on the cellar's outside bottom, it caused an impression mark on the inside. When assayed the object was brought back to the workshop to be finished, the impression marks were badly visible and had to be removed, a common process. That was done by "hammering" the bottom from the inside against an iron "anvil". Silver is as very well also known softer than iron and hammering from inside keeping the marks against the anvil damaged partly the marks on the outside. That is the reason why they look "distorted/blurred" nothing else.
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi,
In regard of ‚‚raised‚‚ punches.
What we see as marks, is actually a mirror image of steel punches. Raised lettering in steel will make impressed lettering in silver and vice versa. Both variants were widely used.
I`m just not sure if either variant can be accepted as a rule of thumb to determine the authenticity.
Not talking about this particular issue, but in general, or putting it straightforward: is every raised Faberge mark a fake? That would contradict many genuine Faberge.
Examples in the link were posted by Dad. Was he showing fake marks ?
http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 8&start=40
Regards
In regard of ‚‚raised‚‚ punches.
What we see as marks, is actually a mirror image of steel punches. Raised lettering in steel will make impressed lettering in silver and vice versa. Both variants were widely used.
I`m just not sure if either variant can be accepted as a rule of thumb to determine the authenticity.
Not talking about this particular issue, but in general, or putting it straightforward: is every raised Faberge mark a fake? That would contradict many genuine Faberge.
Examples in the link were posted by Dad. Was he showing fake marks ?
http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 8&start=40
Regards
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
#AG2012
Exactly that is the point. No, Dad was not showing fake marks.
Exactly that is the point. No, Dad was not showing fake marks.
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi -
Perhaps it would be meaningful to talk about the latest methods of counterfeiters. Fakes are now rarely made in the kitchen - but more or less industrially - with ultra-modern machines - in low-cost countries. All modern repromethods are available - laser welding and laser engraving are standard. Enamels are made quickly and inexpensively in all shapes and designs, thanks to electroplating/galvano technology. While we are wondering about whether Fabergé stamps should be sublime or deepened, we should rather go to the appropriate institutions and make our own picture. It is useless to invoke the constantly repeated old and outdated formulas. All the so-called experts have probably never been able to examine face-to-face authentic Fabergé objects in their lives, let alone noticed the qualitative differences between products from St. Petersburg and products from Moscow. Through the countless counterfeits that circulate in all auction houses and online auctions, the visual behavior has already been greatly altered - and things are accepted which would have been rejected with protest years ago. Fraud is the order of the day!
It's about lots of money - everyone wants to share - blind in one eye! You are supporting criminals!
Last word: how boundless naive you have to be to buy a Fabergé object from a Nobody dealer - who could sell it 10 or 20 times more profitable in London or New York - if it is authentic? Is he stupid or you? Privily you know the answer....
Regards
Goldstein
Perhaps it would be meaningful to talk about the latest methods of counterfeiters. Fakes are now rarely made in the kitchen - but more or less industrially - with ultra-modern machines - in low-cost countries. All modern repromethods are available - laser welding and laser engraving are standard. Enamels are made quickly and inexpensively in all shapes and designs, thanks to electroplating/galvano technology. While we are wondering about whether Fabergé stamps should be sublime or deepened, we should rather go to the appropriate institutions and make our own picture. It is useless to invoke the constantly repeated old and outdated formulas. All the so-called experts have probably never been able to examine face-to-face authentic Fabergé objects in their lives, let alone noticed the qualitative differences between products from St. Petersburg and products from Moscow. Through the countless counterfeits that circulate in all auction houses and online auctions, the visual behavior has already been greatly altered - and things are accepted which would have been rejected with protest years ago. Fraud is the order of the day!
It's about lots of money - everyone wants to share - blind in one eye! You are supporting criminals!
Last word: how boundless naive you have to be to buy a Fabergé object from a Nobody dealer - who could sell it 10 or 20 times more profitable in London or New York - if it is authentic? Is he stupid or you? Privily you know the answer....
Regards
Goldstein
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi,
OK, I stand corrected in regard of marks on the cellar.
Regards
OK, I stand corrected in regard of marks on the cellar.
Regards
Re: Faberge hallmark -cellar
Hi -
next step after checking the marks: is the form/design/style typical for the country Russia?
Salts with handle? Never seen.
Conclusion?
We all know the "Russificated" quality silver scale from Europe - if it is better it is Fabergé - if it is not so good it is Ovtschinnikov - if it is bad it is Sazikov.
Regards
Goldlstein
next step after checking the marks: is the form/design/style typical for the country Russia?
Salts with handle? Never seen.
Conclusion?
We all know the "Russificated" quality silver scale from Europe - if it is better it is Fabergé - if it is not so good it is Ovtschinnikov - if it is bad it is Sazikov.
Regards
Goldlstein