Grachev

[madej]

Hello.
What do you think?
















Regards

[AG2012]

Hi,
Die stamped, possibly German.Not Russian.Faked marks.Sorry.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

@madej
What I think is that an ant is bigger than the marks. Anyway, Two alternatives:

1. The mark to the left is an import mark for Riga ПТ means ПРИВОЗНЫХ ТОВАРОВ (imported goods). Imported by Gratchev
or
2. The Gratchev mark is added later on an import marked object.

I think the latter one is the case.

[Goldstein]

Hi madej -

some facts you should learn:
Riga was the hub for the import from and export to Russia.
The from you shown mark (import mark from Russia to Riga, mark of the Gratschev Brothers (Court suppliers).

An other import mark to Riga:

An example of the wellknown cutlery firm Carl Theodor Bayermann who imported some cutlery from Germay:

2 original marks of the Gratschev Brothers:


Some informations about the Gratschev Brothers you should copy for your files:

Die stamped, possibly German...

correct, many silver was exported to Riga (remember that 1900 the idustrial age was already in full bloom! No fake!).

Regards
Goldstein

sources: private collections,"The Fabulous Epoch of Fabergé"

[madej]

Thanks.
So what about the authenticity, because my English is not very good and I got lost in it:(

[AG2012]

IMO import mark is authentic but Grachev was possibly added later (as suspected above).
Typical die stamped German silver at the turn of 19th century.

[Qrt.S]

Riga was the hub for the import from and export to Russia.
The from you shown mark (import mark from Russia to Riga, mark of the Gratschev Brothers

Mind my asking, but Riga was Russia in those days, so ???

We are now talking about an import mark used in Russia and in this case the importing town is Riga. Gratchev borthers were mostly exporters. Gavril Gratchev used the mark ГРАТЧЕВЪ to his death 1873. After that the company was overtaken by his sons and the company was named ФАБРИКАНТ СЕРЕБЯНЫХ И ЗОЛОТЫХ ИЗДЕЛИЙ ГРАЧЕВ. As from 1897 the brothers changed the name to БР.ГРАЧЕВЫ (Gratschev broters). The import mark showed here ceased to exist in 1898/99.

Time for conclusions: As I already stated, the Gratchev mark is added later. The company was not an importer. The object can be genuine but it carries fake marks.

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

Mind my asking, but Riga was Russia in those days, so ???

Yes - but the extremely strict Baltic guilds were jealous of their rights!
And have executed those consequent.

Gratchev borthers were mostly exporters.

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

Just to remember the facts:

Gratschev Brothers
Court Supplier (from December 13th, 1901). Mikhail Gratschev – Appraiser to the Cabinet from 1892. The firm was established in 1866 in St. Petersburg by Gavriil Petrowitsch Gratschev. Before he worked for the firm „Gasse“ - shop on Newsky Prospekt. His sons continued the business as „Gratschev Brothers“. In 1889 they founded a workshop of their own. As the firm had no mark of its own they sold pieces bearing the personal marks of the makers who worked fo them. ( something fakers today like very much). Theirs is one of the first known jewelry firms. 1878: shop´s attorney was the honorary citizen Samsonow. 1880: Gratschev Mikhail, aged 17, merchant from 1875, house of Catholic Church (Nevsky Prospekt), trade in silver items in the same premises. Brothers: Alexei aged 14, Grigori 12, Semyon 10, Nikolai aged 9, Gavriil 7, Peter 6, Ivan 5. 1883: residing 12 M. Konyushennaya St. 1889: Mikhail Gratschev was awarded a gold medal with a ribbon of St. Stanislav (for the firm´s participation in the Copenhagen Exhibition, 1888). 1897: Mikhail and Gavriil – hereditary honorary citizens. Grigori Gratschev managed the firm´s workshops for more than10 years. Mikhail and Grigori contributed their zeal to the business and made the products of their factory known and demanded in Russia and abroad. Objects by the Gratschevs won prizes at Exhibitions in Copenhagen and Chicago, at All-Russian Exhibition of Arts and Industries in Nischni Novgorod (1896), the firm was given the Grand Prize „State Emblem“. 1900: firm „Gratschev Bros.“ from 1875 on. Mikhail and Semyon Gavrilowitsch were full partners, the other five brothers were depositors. 1900: Ivan Gavrilowitsch, aged 37, merchant of the second guild. Appraiser to the Cabinet from 1892, also elected representative of the merchants from 1893. Semyon Gavrilowitsch, aged 30, graduated from Dr. Wideman´s Commercial School (Agathon C. Fabergé was also a graduate of this school – V. Skurlov) merchant of the second guild from 1895. Factory „ Gratschev Bros.“: 14 Pevscheski L. Annual turnover of 125 000 rubles. Oil engines 16 horse-powers. Director of the factory: Gratschev Semyon Gavrilowitsch. Shop: 34 Nevsky Prospekt. The factory closed on March 2nd, 1918. Until January 1st, 1917 the factory employed 20 workers. Production: table silver, hand grenades (WW I).


Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein

Hi Qrt.S -

Mind my asking, but Riga was Russia in those days, so ???

Yes - but the extremely strict Baltic guilds were jealous of their rights!
And have executed those consequent.

What is that nonsense in red suppose to mean and why listing half a book? There is nothing new in your citation. I could make a similar one with even more information. The point here is did Gratchew import/export and is their mark faked? Moreover, there are no poofs of import.

FYI
The Gratchev firm took part in several world art and industrial exhibitions since 1888. It was awarded in e.g. Copenhagen (you mentioned it yourself!), Chicago and other places....How is that possible without an export facility? But that Gratchev would have imported goods alongside with their own production....what fore???

Give in and don't try to distract by copying irrelevant text, the shown object has fake marks!

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

to prevent an endless discussion and further insults: I am wrong (as always) - you are right (as always).

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

FYI
The Gratchev firm took part in several world art and industrial exhibitions since 1888. It was awarded in e.g. Copenhagen (you mentioned it yourself!), Chicago and other places....How is that possible without an export facility? But that Gratchev would have imported goods alongside with their own production....what fore???

To participate in an exhibition abroad you need no export marks etc - in a sales fair you need that. Just to be correct.

Regards
Goldstein.

[Qrt.S]

I'm not always right and I don't tell tales except to my granddaughter.
FYI
There are no Russian export marks for the period in question

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

There are no Russian export marks for the period in question

I'm very reluctant to contradict your concentrated knowledge - but here they are:






and since 1992

I'm not always right and I don't tell tales except to my granddaughter.

True and not true.

Anyways - the forum should be a place to learn and entertain. A "thank you" would sometimes be more appropriate than a stupid saying .....

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
Absolutely correct, but if one doesn't even bother to read what is written, the learning is most difficult if at all. Reread in read what I wrote below.

Hi Qrt.S -

There are no Russian export marks for the period in question

The period we are talking about is 1882-1899 when the import mark with ПТ was used. There were no export marks during those years. The marks you show are from 1908-1917/27. And I know that you know it perfectly well.

For the records:
The first picture shows not an export marking. Those crosses are punched on a Russian hallmarked object that has been taken abroad but later brought back to Russia in other words "imported". That because both marks are crossed.
The second, third and fourth picture you can call an export mark because only the main mark is crossed.
To claim that the last mark would be an export mark from 1992 is again pure nonsense. It is only a scratch in a hallmark from 1908-1917/26

Export marks as from 2.10.1992 look like this:



Nonetheless, I repeat this was not the period we were talking about so don't try me!
And this is the end of this story!

[madej]

Thanks a guy.
I learned some of my knowledge but at the first moment Socrates' words lead me to "I know that I know nothing" ;(
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi -

Gratchev borthers were mostly exporters.

A firm statement without any proof - the contrary is often seen on real existing objects. It would help to show some exported objects!

For example: a often seen ( especially in Poland under Russian rule) cutlery pattern mostly made by different Russian and Polish firms. Here imported via Riga (see the rampant bear standing for 875 silver) by probably a German firm to St. Petersburg/Russia and sold by Gratschev. See the diskussion about the rampant bear here on the forum and Riga as hub for the silver Import/export.







Regards
Goldstein

[dognose]

Hi Goldstein,

I thought when this discussion came up a few years ago, that the 'Rampant Bear' mark was likely to be that of a Romanian maker?

See: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... nt#p108320

Or has something more conclusive been established?

Trev.

[Goldstein]

Hi Trev -

the shown spoons are in my posession - at that time I did not know what the bear mark is - I thought a maker.
Here "my" explanation (short version):
Russia was at that time a gigantic market for the European makers and dealers/exporters.
Russia without a watch industry (until the 1950´s!) was a big market for the Swiss watch industry. One firm made the watch - another firm made the watch case (mostly silver). In 1882-1934 they created the marks:

The bear for silver 875, the capercaillie for silver 800. Silver 875 was in Europa not the hit - but in Russia it was mandatory. Nearly all the Swiss watch cases of that time have the rampant bear (875) mark - destiny more or less Russia. You could not sell silver 800 in Russia!
Riga - the export hub to Russia - sold a lot of silver flat - and table ware to Russia - but without the German makersmarks - silvercontent 875 (shown by the bear mark) - unusual in Germany! Made for the export! They just took the Swiss bear mark that was handy. In Russia the silver got the different import marks - mostly Moscow and St. Petersburg.
In other words: the bear mark was the discreet "guarantee" for a silver content of 875/1000 for the dealers on an otherwise "clean" object.. The customers got their guarantee by the assay mark from Russia/Bulgaria, Hungary etc. Everybody was happy.
I hope my short explanation was not too confuse - but I could show many examples from my collection which support my personal opinion. My recherches in German cutlery firms were more or less in vain - files are lost (WW II), firms changed the owner several times, who cleared the archives or have still no interest to seek. So its maybe only my opinion....

Regards
Goldstein

[dognose]

Hi Goldstein,

A most interesting explanation.

I'll edit the mentioned topic to allow for your theory.

Trev.

[Goldstein]

Hi Trev -

while collocating my spoon drawers I found this tea spoon made and marked by Khlebnikov!




It is of the exact design and quality like the "bear" spoon.


Now we have something to think!
1) used Khlebnikov a German pattern (same pattern made by differet firms was not unusual in Russia)?
2) is this pattern an own design of Khlebnikov?
3) copied a German firm the Khlebnikov pattern and exported it (bear mark) but not to Russia?
4) is it a common pattern everybody could copy?

Regards
Goldstein