Set of four (salt?) spoons, London?, George III, 1789?, unidentifiable maker, modern engraving

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StephenLondon
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:00 pm

Set of four (salt?) spoons, London?, George III, 1789?, unidentifiable maker, modern engraving

Post by StephenLondon »

Hello.

I'm new to the forum and slightly nervous about the complex rules for posting and the risk of having a whole thread deleted or my account banned, so I hope my first posting goes ok! I know that it is a rule that only one item may be posted in a thread. I am assuming that this is to prevent people posting lots of different items. In this case the items are a set of four identical items, so I am posting photos of all of them, partly so that I can show both sides of the item in one photo, and partly because it means I can include four sets of hallmarks, some of which are easier to read than others.

I have tried to do my research, but I fear I haven't done very well.

The item is English sterling silver. I hope that I have got that much right. It also appears to date from the reign of George III, so I hope that I have got that right too. There is no city mark, which I understand is not uncommon on small items from this period. To the best of my ability I have identified the year as being London 1789. A lot of date letters look quite similar to the untrained eye, but this seemed like the closest match. The maker's mark is almost illegible to me, and I have not found anything like it in any of the lists of makers marks for the whole of England. I'll give a description, as it is so hard to read. It seems to be a square containing four letters, one in each quadrant. I would say that the letter in the top right is almost certainly an M. I had a feeling that the one in the top left could have been a W, but I'm really not sure.

As for the purpose of these items, I have guessed that they are salt spoons, but that may be wrong. They are approx. 15 mm in length, with the bowl being approx. 23 mm in width and approx. 5 mm in depth.

Even if I am wrong about the date of 1789, they certainly seem to date from the period 1760-1820. In 1996 they were given as a baptism gift from the godfather to his godson and for this occasion the letters of the godson's baptismal name, "SA", were engraved on the handle. The engraving was undertaken by Asprey & Garrard Limited, which at the time was the crown jeweller (the godfather was a member of the Royal Household, so there is a further personal connection there). I am curious to know what people in the world of silver tend to think about this sort of development. On the one hand, I'm not sure if it would be considered a kind of vandalism to make this kind of modification to something over 200 years old, but on the other hand I wonder whether it is simply seen as an interesting piece of the history of the item and a perfectly legitimate use.

On one of the spoons the stem seems to have been broken and reattached, seemingly by soldering. I don't know whether this is common or not.

I'd be very interested to hear any feedback on the city, date, and maker, and also any observations about the relatively recent engraving and the repair.

Thanks very much,
Stephen

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dognose
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Re: Set of four (salt?) spoons, London?, George III, 1789?, unidentifiable maker, modern engraving

Post by dognose »

Hi Stephen,

Welcome to the Forum.

An excellent first post, no worries there!

I would say these were assayed at London in 1809. The maker (your image is upside down) would have been the partnership of Peter and William Bateman. The maker struck his mark prior to the items being submitted to the assay office so they often appear the opposite way round to the hallmarks.

See: http://www.925-1000.com/dlLondon10.html#M

As for there use, at that size (I presume you meant 15cm? - I still live in Imperial, so perhaps its me!) they would be small sauce ladles.

Personally, I don't like later engraving, however, in this case the engraving appears to have been done sympathetically and in a style that befits the period, so no real harm done there. I guess such engraving is all part of the history of the pieces.

Trev.
StephenLondon
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:00 pm

Re: Set of four (salt?) spoons, London?, George III, 1789?, unidentifiable maker, modern engraving

Post by StephenLondon »

Hello, Trev,

Thanks for this very helpful reply.

It did in fact occur to me the wonder whether the maker's mark was upside down, as I thought it was odd that it wasn't straight either. However, I dismissed the idea as I didn't realise that maker's marks and assay marks were applied separately, so I didn't realise that it was possible for this to happen.

Yes, I certainly did mean that the spoons were 15 cm (or about 6") in length, not 15 mm! What I actually meant to type was 150 mm, as when I was at school everything had to be measured in mm, not cm, so something that was 60.5 cm would be 605 mm, even though it's a bit cumbersome to measure everything like that! Small sauce ladles therefore sounds like a perfectly possible explanation.

I have just been curious for a long time about what these spoons actually are. I couldn't care less whether they are worth £5 or £500. So my question about the engraving was, as I think you rightly thought, purely whether it is frowned upon for historical and/or artistic reasons. It's good to know that the engraving has at least been well done. Personally, I tend to think that it's a good idea to preserve historical items in their original condition, so to me the idea of engraving on something that is already 187 years old seems alarming! I suppose if it was going to be done by anyone the crown jeweller could probably be relied upon to do a good job. As you say, it does become part of the history of the piece, and there is a card in the box with the spoons that records who they were given to, the date and place of the baptism, and who they were from. Another couple of hundred years from now somebody may find that interesting, and the engraving will by then seem antique in its own right.

Thanks,
Stephen
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