Rewriting History - Carden Terry & John Williams

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Post Reply
scorpio
contributor
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:41 pm
Location: Ireland

Rewriting History - Carden Terry & John Williams

Post by scorpio »

Reference books such as Douglas Bennett’s Irish Georgian Silver and Collecting Irish Silver, Bowen & O'Brien's Cork Silver and Gold as well as auctioneers and online sources all state Cork silversmiths, Carden Terry and John Williams, entered a partnership in 1795. In Cork Silver and Gold the authors say John Williams may have worked independently for some years before joining up with his father-in-law, his mark being IW in a serrated rectangular reserve. I have read comments to the effect that this was between the years 1791 and 1795. As we know, John Williams served his seven-year apprenticeship under Carden Terry. There has always been a niggling doubt over some silver items with the IW mark as to whether they should be attributed to John Williams or John Warner.

IW in a serrated rectangular reserve
Image

While researching some 19th century Cork archives, I came across a reference to the partnership of Carden Terry and John Williams that had me searching deeply into the source of the partnership dating to 1795. Eventually, I traced it back to an article titled The Goldsmiths of Cork by Cecil C. Woods published in the Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, 1895. In this article, the author says, “From about 1795 to about 1810, Carden Terry and John Williams were in partnership, and, I believe, that after that till about 1815, Mrs Williams carried on the business under the name of Terry and Williams.” Not all of this information is correct, as we now know, but 1795 has remained fixated in people’s minds as the date Carden Terry and John Williams partnered. I do not know where Cecil C. Woods got this date from but perhaps his notes are archived in some library or private collection. In The Goldsmiths of Cork, he says, “I apprehend that the records of the goldsmiths’ guild are lost— probably they were destroyed long ago, and such information as I have been able to obtain has been gathered in leisure hours, during the last ten years, from many different sources." Cecil C. Woods attributes an IW mark to John Williams while Douglas Bennett does not. In Collecting Irish Silver Bennett attributes IW in a serrated rectangular reserve to John Warner and does not show one for John Williams. In Cork Silver and Gold, the authors attribute IW in a serrated reserve to John Williams, the mark with slight differences to that in Collecting Irish Silver, probably due to Bennett's mark being drawn rather than a photograph.

So, it’s a date that has been perpetuated since at least 1895 but the reference I came across mentioned that Carden Terry had taken John Williams into partnership in October 1791, its significance totally overlooked though as the researcher was a genealogist not a collector of Cork silver. I was reluctant to merely accept this information until I had checked it out personally, so early last week, I applied for a Reader card at the National Library of Ireland, ordered the microfilm of the newspaper archives for that period, the Hibernian Chronicle (an old Cork publication) and went back to the Library the next day to view it. It’s a wonderful free service by the way. The Library is located within a magnificent late Victorian building on Kildare Street beside the Dáil, designed, quite appropriately in the circumstances, by a Cork architect, Sir Thomas Newenham Deane.

Scrolling the microfilm reader forward, I eventually reached Monday, October 10, 1791 and there on the left side of the front page of that day’s newspaper was the notice saying that Carden Terry had taken his son-in-law, John Williams, into Partnership. The photos below are of the relevant page along with a magnified image of the Carden Terry notice. It’s quite fortunate that this page is easy enough to read, as a number of Hibernian Chronicle pages on the microfilm are quite dark and almost unreadable. The newspapers were over 200 years old when scanned so understandable. Anyway, this is the text:
"Carden Terry, Gold-smith & Jeweller, HAVING taken his Son-in-law (JOHN WILLIAMS) into Partnership, intends to carry on the Business more extensively than ever. - They daily expect a large and elegant Assortment of Wrought Plate from London, which, with every Article in their Line, they will sell at the most reduced Prices for ready Money ONLY, and hope for a Continuance of that Preference which C. TERRY has hitherto experienced, and which it shall be their Study to merit. Sep 22"

Image

Image

So, there you have it, in black and white. The reference books and online sources on Cork silver need revising. In the Hibernian Chronicle, October 10, 1791, Carden Terry announced he had taken his son-in-law, John Williams, into partnership on Sept. 22.

This their mark:
T&W in a rectangular reserve:
Image

Carden Terry's eldest daughter, Jane, was married on 6 August 1791 in St Peter’s Church, Cork, to her father’s apprentice, John Williams. John Williams was born on 15th August 1771 so was just 19 going on 20 when he married Jane Terry. She was also 19 having been born on the 2nd December 1771. Presumably, John Williams had just completed his seven-year apprenticeship at this time. So it seems Carden Terry set up the partnership with his son-in-law the month after the wedding. The T&W (Terry & Williams) mark clearly now should be re-dated to 1791 instead of 1795 but where does that leave the IW mark in a serrated rectangular reserve? The revised earlier date of 1791 for the partnership does not allow time for John Williams to have worked independently prior to that date so did he work independently outside the partnership with the IW mark as well as within the partnership or should it now be firmly attributed to John Warner? People can make up their own minds but my personal opinion is that John Williams, having married Carden Terry’s eldest daughter and been taken into partnership with one of Cork’s most prominent silversmiths is not likely to have produced silver with his own IW mark while remaining within that partnership and that Bennett was correct in his attribution. Carden Terry and John Williams registered their C.T over I.W mark with the Company of Goldsmiths, Dublin in 1797 and the partnership continued until John Williams died in 1806, the cause usually stated to be due to an abscess in the lungs from a cold while fishing. However, Terry genealogy records add, ‘Scrofula is however suspected.’ Scrofula is the term used for lymphadenopathy of the neck, usually as a result of an infection in the lymph nodes, known as lymphadenitis. The most common cause is tuberculous mycobacteria. It is often referred to as a ‘cold abscess’ and scrofula caused by tuberculosis is usually accompanied by other symptoms of the disease, such as fever and chills.

In Cork Silver and Gold the authors say John Williams was made a Freeman in 1795 but I have yet to find the source for this. On checking the file for the Cork City list of Freeman between 1710-1841, http://www.corkarchives.ie/media/freemen1710-1841.pdf no mention is made of a John Williams, Silversmith, although his son Carden Terry Williams is mentioned. There is a John Williams, Merchant, 1793 and another John Williams, Linen Draper, no date, but neither of those look correct nor match the 1795 date. This PDF file was compiled from the old archives Index/Digest to Council Books of the Corporation of Cork With alphabetical list of Freemen so perhaps the original archives show something different but that is a task for another day.

Sharp-eyed readers will undoubtedly have spotted the notice by John Nicholson & Son a little below Carden Terry's notice which presumably relates to silversmiths John Nicholson I and his son John Nicholson II but the inferences posed by this notice need to be addressed in another thread, which I will post in a day or so.

Gordon
dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 59003
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: Rewriting History - Carden Terry & John Williams

Post by dognose »

Hi Gordon,

That's a brilliant find. Well found! Indeed, reference books on Irish silver will need revising.

Since I read your post, I've been searching for information regarding John Williams being admitted Freeman, but with no luck so far.

Strangely, from what I found so far, references to payments to silversmiths, noted in ' The Council Book of the Corporation of the City of Cork: From 1609 to 1643, and from 1690 to 1800' refer to Carden Terry only until around 1797 when the name 'Terry & Williams' is first seen (although it's very possible that I've missed something).

There is note of the admission of Samuel Fryer in 1795:

24 July, 1795.
That Samuel Fryer, silversmith, having served Carden Terry, do.; Johnson S. Leger, cotton manufacf., having served Bradshaw Popham, do., be admitted freemen at large.


I believe that fact that Terry's name alone appears in the above was quite normal at the time, an apprentice would have been bound to a particular silversmith, rather than that of the firm.

I'll keep searching and report back if I find anything of note.

Again, well done Gordon, and thank you for sharing this gem of a piece of information with us.

Trev.
dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 59003
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: Rewriting History - Carden Terry & John Williams

Post by dognose »

Just to discount the 'John Williams, Merchant' as a possibility:

10th December 1793

John Williams, merch'., having served Henry Sadlier, do.; Edward Scott, eldest son of Edward S., gent., dec., be admitted freemen at large.


Source: The Council Book of the Corporation of the City of Cork: From 1609 to 1643, and from 1690 to 1800 - 1876

Trev.
scorpio
contributor
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:41 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Rewriting History - Carden Terry & John Williams

Post by scorpio »

Thanks Trev. It's quite astonishing this went unnoticed for so long given all the research that has gone on into Cork silver.

That's interesting about the payments to silversmiths only mentioning Carden Terry until 1797 when Terry & Williams was seen. If John Williams was made a partner in 1791 would he not have completed his apprenticeship by then. Apprentices usually started around age 14 or a bit earlier so that would fit in with him finishing in late 1791. I guess Carden Terry held on to the purse strings though if all payments went to him.

Thanks for the info on John Williams, Merchant, we can eliminate him then. As for John Williams, Linen Draper, I've found out we can eliminate him too. This John Williams was Jane and John Williams son, the second of their three children. Jane Williams opened up a linen drapery business after her father died, calling it Jane Terry & Son.

Gordon
scorpio
contributor
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:41 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Rewriting History - Carden Terry & John Williams

Post by scorpio »

Sorry for the error, her linen drapery business should read 'Jane Williams & Son'.
bstaunto
contributor
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:43 am
Location: Australia

Re: Rewriting History - Carden Terry & John Williams

Post by bstaunto »

Great stuff team!

Thanks for sharing Gordon! A great reminder to not assume because it is in a book (or many books even!) it is true.

Ben
scorpio
contributor
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:41 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Rewriting History - Carden Terry & John Williams

Post by scorpio »

Thanks Ben and you're right, you never know what new information may turn up in the future. I hope to return to the National Library on occasions during the coming months to see what else may be lurking in those old archives. Regarding the Nicholson family of silversmiths, check out my recent post here: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 38&t=40296

Also, Trev is constantly updating his threads on Cork silver here http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 38&t=14695.

Gordon
Post Reply

Return to “Irish Hallmarks”