Russian Hallmarks

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Pipedude
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Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:25 pm

Russian Hallmarks

Postby Pipedude » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:09 pm

Hi all

I purchased this pipe recently for my collection and the hallmarks appear to be Russian from the information I have seen on this site, but I cannot see these marks on here as examples. I would like to know where and when this was made if anyone can help?

Thanks

Steve

Image
Image

Qrt.S
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Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:06 pm

The marks are worn and difficult to read. Are those marks all there is? My best shot is that it is made in Polotzk in Russia 1842-1858. Today Polotzk is located in Belarus. Unfortunately the maker is unknown (to me). Maybe somebody else can identify him.

AG2012
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Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby AG2012 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:16 pm

Hi,
Unfortunately this pipe does not look Russian;even with imitated Chinese pipe there is a problem.The joint betrays assembling the pipe, i.e. connecting Chinese carving taken from elsewhere and Russian silver piece (red arrow).
Another point: I suppose silver collar is not marked.
In short, the pipe does not look authentic.
Regards
Image

Dad
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Location: St. Petersburg

Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Dad » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:58 pm

Hi, Pipedude

Show the maker's mark, please. It to the right of 84 (it is hidden in a shadow).

AG2012
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Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby AG2012 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:48 pm

Hello again,
Cap ferrel (ferrule,collar, ring) should be marked, too. Search for marks there, please.
Regards

Goldstein
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Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Goldstein » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:01 pm

Hi -
here a small selection of Russian "Mundstück" how they look - there are many variations - but the typus is always the same. The shown piece is the combination of several worth - and senseless fragments of former pipes - one with Russian marks.

Image

Regards
Goldstein

Dad
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Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Dad » Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:38 am

Good Morning.

I'm sorry. But.
Did you confuse the concepts "made in Russia" vs " made "a la russe""? That there is in your representation "Russian": a matrjoshka, a balalaika, a bear at Red Square ......? ))
The Russian Empire - the great, multinational, multicultural State.

This Hallmarks speaks for us about the western Belarusian territories of the Russian Empire. During this period of History there were very few pure Russians (nationality on the birth) in towns there. Jews, Poles, Germans... 90 % of gold- and silversmiths were Jews. Very strong Polish-German traditions in jewelry.
Look, what pipes were in the German states and in Austria during this period.

I'm waiting for photo

Pipedude
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Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:25 pm

Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Pipedude » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:36 am

Image
Image

Thanks for the responses to date. I agree that the connector has been repaired at the shank as pointed out in one of the posts. However, the hallmarks are also the same on the mounts to the bowl, see attached.

The pipe, I would say is more Germanic in style and I would not associate with Russia. That was why I was wondering whether the marks may have been import marks?

AG2012
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Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby AG2012 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:37 am

Hello again,
As you know this is Kalmasch pipe in German. Regarding its authenticity there are pros and cons.
It`s not imported to Russia. Hallmarks are of town Polotsk, now Belarus. With multicultural population in the region one could expect Kalmasch pipes.
The same mark in two places is important. But the cap is not hinged, very unusual for Kalmasch pipes and the ring on the cap should bear the same marks.
On the other hand, there are fake marks, but faking a minor assay office, not well documented, does not make much sense.
So, the marks look genuine but the question remains whether silver mounts were taken from e.g. a broken Meerschaum pipe and fitted to dragon wood carving. That`s not very difficult to do. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell for sure.
Regards

Pipedude
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:25 pm

Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Pipedude » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:26 am

AG2012 wrote:Hello again,
As you know this is Kalmasch pipe in German. Regarding its authenticity there are pros and cons.
It`s not imported to Russia. Hallmarks are of town Polotsk, now Belarus. With multicultural population in the region one could expect Kalmasch pipes.
The same mark in two places is important. But the cap is not hinged, very unusual for Kalmasch pipes and the ring on the cap should bear the same marks.
On the other hand, there are fake marks, but faking a minor assay office, not well documented, does not make much sense.
So, the marks look genuine but the question remains whether silver mounts were taken from e.g. a broken Meerschaum pipe and fitted to dragon wood carving. That`s not very difficult to do. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell for sure.
Regards


Many thanks for taking the time to revert with the above. It is a difficult one. I own over 1000 antique meerschaums and woods so have a number of style to compare this to. while it is clear to see there has been some repair work on the stem connector, the silver mounts on the bowl rim and cap fit perfectly to the pipe. The majority of meerschaums lap pipes with silver mounts tend to be circular and this is more of an oval shape which leans me towards these being genuine. It is like trying to match a pipe with an empty case, it is pretty difficult as even standard old briar pipes all vary slightly in shape, width etc. I guess it will remain unanswered, but still a great rare pipe, and displays lovely!

Thanks again for your advice

Steve

Goldstein
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Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Goldstein » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:16 am

Hi Pipedude -

Pipedude wrote:Many thanks for taking the time to revert with the above. It is a difficult one. I own over 1000 antique meerschaums and woods so have a number of style to compare this to.


Only over 1000? All in this "quality"? Dragons are typical for Russia ....especially the rare Polotsk turquoise-eyed one...

Goldstein

Goldstein
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Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Goldstein » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:29 am

Hi Pipedude -
just in case you do not know what a Kalmasch type of pipe is....

Image

Regards
Goldstein

Dad
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Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Dad » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:37 am

Thanks for foto.

Yes.
It's pipe from Mogilev or Vitebsk (now Belarus). I can't define without assayer name mark.
Maker's name begin since letter "Ш" ( cyrillics). Maybe "Шмуль", "Шлёма" (Shmul, Shlioma), derivative from Solomon. The second letter (family) i don't see, unfortunately.

Best regards.

oel
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Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby oel » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:58 am

Dragons are known to Russians; Tugarin Zmeyevich

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_dragon

Cheers,
Peter

Pipedude
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Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:25 pm

Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Pipedude » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:11 pm

oel wrote:Dragons are known to Russians; Tugarin Zmeyevich

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_dragon

Cheers,
Peter


Thanks for the info, cheers. Steve

Pipedude
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:25 pm

Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Pipedude » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:11 pm

Dad wrote:Thanks for foto.

Yes.
It's pipe from Mogilev or Vitebsk (now Belarus). I can't define without assayer name mark.
Maker's name begin since letter "Ш" ( cyrillics). Maybe "Шмуль", "Шлёма" (Shmul, Shlioma), derivative from Solomon. The second letter (family) i don't see, unfortunately.

Best regards.


Many thanks for your information. Steve

Pipedude
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:25 pm

Re: Russian Hallmarks

Postby Pipedude » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:13 pm

Goldstein wrote:Hi Pipedude -
just in case you do not know what a Kalmasch type of pipe is....

Image

Regards
Goldstein

I was aware, but thank you for posting and the info


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