Unknown Russian Hallmarks

[tolly123]

Hi I've got a very nice Russian silver cigarette case. I believe it is hallmarked with kokoshnik marks for Moscow between 1927 and 1954. However I can't find anything on the makers mark, which I believe is anglicized as MSC from cyrillic (MC4). There is also two marks on the edge which I think is the number 15 in a semi-oval, which I thought might possibly be a Moscow artel mark? I struggled to get a picture of this though so drew how it looked through my jewelers loupe.

I would really appreciate it if anyone can confirm the kokoshnik marks, confirm what the number 15 stamps mean and identify the makers mark

[oel]

Hi,

Soviet domestic hallmark, the Soviet worker's head with a hammer and with the metric system to indicate the fineness,the Greek letter delta for Moscow, used 1927-1958.
The maker’s mark could be; mю4 for; Mockobckaя ювелирно- чаcobaя Фабрика,feel free to translate to; Moscow Jewelry Racobaya Factory.
The number 4 in the maker’s mark indicates made in 1954. The number 15 is not an Artel mark; the Russian Artels were demolished before or during/after the Russian Revolutions in 1917-18.Your number 15, I believe to be a factory code number.
http://www.silvercollection.it/dictionaryartelsMO.html
Just be patient and wait for Dad or Qrt.S to drop in with perhaps better and more information about the maker’s mark.


Oel.

[Dad]

Hi, All.

Yes. It's Moscow, 1927-1953.
Punch of the producer of "MG.4". Items are sigarcases and glass holders. I believe it's not 1954, but "4" is part of producer mark. Items with such punch often have an inscription with date around the 1930th.

Best Reg..

[Dad]

Sorry, cyrillics "МГ.4"

[tolly123]

Hi thank you both for your help.

Looking at the design I think around 1930 would make sense. I would have thought that the number 4 is part of the makers mark rather than an indication of the year in which it was made, otherwise the maker would have to continuously change their own makers mark?

I would really appreciate if you could provide any links/ information/ pictures to help me identify the maker or compare the hallmarks with the said items.

Regards, Tolly

[oel]

Hi Tolly,

According to my reference book; World Hallmarks Volum1 Europe 19th to 21st Centuries, the Soviet domestic hallmark of the Soviet worker’s head facing right with a hammer was used from 1927 until 1958.

Date & Maker’s Mark combined as of 1953 to date. Yes indeed, every year the silver factory/smith has to adjust the maker’s mark; maximum of three letters with the correct year number code. As of 1987 the combined mark; maximum three letters to identify the maker, date code, and including regional assay office symbol. As of the year 2000 the combined mark; date letter, assay office symbol, maximum two letters to identify maker. Herewith an example for the 1950ties:



The maker’s mark МГ.4 is not mentioned in the Russian Gold and Silver Hallmarks Catalogue Book for the XVII - XX cc by Postnikova Loseva (Over 2600 hallmarks and stamps of Russian and foreign (working in Russia) gold and silversmiths from XVII - XX centuries). I looked in Postnikova L. to match your mark with a clear M and number 4 at the end but indeed Dad is right your maker’s mark reads: МГ.4
Stylistically your cigarette box looks Art Deco, although this style revived in the 50ties, the 1930ties fits perfect.

Hi Dad,
Where can we find this maker’s mark МГ.4 and do you know the name or is it an unknown maker’s mark? Thanks.


Oel.

[Dad]

Hi, Oel.

You are absolutely right. After 1953 punches of the producer in the USSR comprised last figure of year of production.
But this is the cigarette case made in the period of 1926-1953 when used a punch "the worker's head with hammer in an oval".

I don't know who this producer.
It isn't enough data on the enterprises of the pre-war period. After revolution many enterprises (plants, factories, artels) were formed on the basis of the nationalized private companies. Their names often didn't differ in the imagination. They were called at numbers: "First State factory", "Second metallic artel ..." etc.
Perhaps, we see an example of use of such number in a punch of the producer.

Here some examples of products with such punch:






(It not my items)


Best Reg..

[oel]

Hi Dad,

Thank you very much, according to my book the Soviet worker with hammer in oval used 1927-1958, and Replaced in 1958 by the five pointed star enclosing a hammer and sickle till 1994. See page:


Could you please show, according your source, what kind kind of frame shape was used in the period 1953-1958?

I do agree the maker’s mark МГ.4 to be pre 2nd World War. Thanks for showing those astonishing fine examples. Soviet Art Deco with great, well done engraving work.

Best regards,

Oel.

[Qrt.S]

Hi Oel,

You are both right and wrong. The worker's head mark was used as from 23.6.1927 to 13.6.1959. However, the thing is that as from 7.1.1954 the oval shaped frame was abolished but the use of the "head" in an other frame continued as mentioned above.

This again a sloppy fault in the mentioned book. The book does not tell that the oval frame was abolished 7.1.1954. The assaying mark below superseded the oval frame. This is not either mentioned in this "perfect" book. Kindly add this missing mark to page 250.

[Dad]

Hi.

Punch "the worker's head" in an oval cartouche for subjects more than 10 grams with 1927. For subjects less than 10 grams - a punch "shovel" (лопатка).

In 1954 (on January 7) new "Rules of a punching of products from precious metals" were accepted.
According to these rules of a punch in an oval cartouche aren't used, and all items (and more 10g, and less 10g) are marked by a punch "shovel" (лопатка) .

In the book of P.-L. this fact has the description:

[oel]

Hi Qrt.S,

Thanks and glad you are back. OK I should have said near perfect book and with a little help we could make it into perfect book written in plain English.
However the fact remains that the Soviet hallmark you are showing; Soviet worker with hammer in a rectangle with cut corners, used 7-1-1954 till 13-6-1959 appears not to be mentioned in Postnikova and it certainly doesn't look like a shovel mark.

Hi Dad,

Thanks for showing the correct pages in Postnikova. I checked Postnikova but mist it, I must be getting blind.

Oel.

[Qrt.S]

Indeed we could. Postnikova is more and more outdated but it is good to keep in mind that it was published in the 60thies. At that time it was (still partly is) the best book available. The WH is published in 2010. They could have done their home work better. Anyway, the shovel mark is used alongside with the cut-corner mark. See Dad's picture #3949-50. The use of this mark is a bit unclear to me I must admit. Maybe Dad could fill in the blanks?

[oel]

Hi Qrt.S,

Thanks, yes the silver world could do with an updated book about; Russian Imperial/ Soviet & Russian Federation (hall) marks & maker’s marks, please written in plain simple English. Cheers.




Oel.

[Qrt.S]

Hi Oel,

Actually the matter has been under discussion and there are many problems to overcome. However, this is not the place to discuss how to publish a book. I will continue via a PM to you.
Have a nice day

Qrt.S

[Dad]

Hi Oel,

You are both right and wrong. The worker's head mark was used as from 23.6.1927 to 13.6.1959. However, the thing is that as from 7.1.1954 the oval shaped frame was abolished but the use of the "head" in an other frame continued as mentioned above.

This again a sloppy fault in the mentioned book. The book does not tell that the oval frame was abolished 7.1.1954. The assaying mark below superseded the oval frame. This is not either mentioned in this "perfect" book. Kindly add this missing mark to page 250.

Hi.

Dear Qrt.S You are confused and try to confuse Oel. )) ((

The punch shown by you was used since 1927 to 1958. It is intended only for a punching of sets of leafes ("books") of very thin foil of precious metals. Russian term: "Susal gold", "susal silver".
Leaf gold and leaf silver. These leafes use for a plating, gilding. It was punched on sealing wax, because on a thin leaf the punch can't be put.

In "Rules.." from 1954, about this punch is written:

" Клейма продолговатой формы с закругленными углами, состоящие из знака удостоверения и цифры одной из следующих одиннадцати проб, установленных для желтого сусального золота и сусального серебра: 910, 920, 930, 940, 950, 960, 970, 980, 990, 1000 и для зеленого сусального золота–750 – предназначены для клеймения на сургуче книжек сусальных драгоценных металлов. "

My translation: " Punches of an oblong form with the rounded-off corners,
the certificates consisting of a sign and figure of one of the following eleven thinnes, established for yellow leaf gold and leaf silver (very thin foil for a plating) : 910, 920, 930, 940, 950, 960, 970, 980, 990, 1000 and for leaf's green gold - 750. It is intended for a punching on sealing wax of books of precious metals leafes."

I hope helped ))

[Qrt.S]

OK, thanks for the clarification Dad,

Since the oval frame was abolished in 1954, what mark superseded it as from 1954, the round framed mark with the fineness in a separate mark, or what? It cannot have been the shovel mark only. (Troepolskaja p. 72-74.)

[Dad]

Dear Oyel. It is important to you to know difference of the period 1927-1954 from the period 1954-1958 that:

In the period of 1927-1953 used two types of the main punches:
1)Punch "the worker's head" in an oval cartouche for subjects more than 10 grams
2)Punch "the worker's head" in an "shovel" cartouche (лопатка) for subjects less than 10 grams

In the period of 1954-1958 used one type of the main brand:
Punch "the worker's head" in an "shovel" cartouche (лопатка).
For a punching of all products. "Oval cartouche" withdrew from using.

Therefore you will never meet " oval with the worker's head" on products since 1954. Only "shovel with the worker's head" (lopatka)

For clarity of terms:

[tolly123]

Thank you for your replies I already know a lot more about the cigarette case which I appreciate

Is the hallmark for 1954 or before this date? Is the hallmark a silver factory mark? I have searched Moscow Jewelry Factory marks for the period which don't seem to fit. Dad you posted pictures which appear to show identical hallmarks to my item, did you find the maker/ factories name?

Is this a period in which you see mainly "communised" silver factories and machine silversmithing, or are there many independent or individual silversmiths (and hallmarks)?

Would you say that the cigarette case was machine made or is their any level of skill in its manufacture? Were silver skills lost during the wars and revolution and picked up again post Stalin?

[oel]

Hi Tolly,

Perhaps you overlooked but Dad has answered your question. Your cigarette case is made in the period 1926-1953, according to the oval shape of this particular Soviet hallmark used.

After the revolution many ‘new’ factories, plants & Artels were formed on the basis of the old and nationalized private companies. Although the people remembered the old names new names with numbers were given by the Soviet authorities, like: First State factory, Second metallic Artel and sometimes the number was combined in the punch mark of the producer/state factory, like your producer’s mark: МГ.4 an unrecorded/unknown producer’s mark.
Your cigarette case and the cigarette cases and other items, as shown by Dad and made by this unknown producer are of a high quality. Made in a Soviet Art Deco style and the cigarette cases could haven been made in the 1930ties or pre 2nd World War.
Most of those so called silver factories in Soviet Russia/Europe and in the UK had special man operated machinery to make boxes and various cigarette/card cases in precious or non precious metal (silver-plate). Already in the 1850ties steam engines were used in combination with skilled employees to produce silver objects in a modern way. Silver objects ‘mass’ produced, cheaper but often of good quality. The Arts & Crafts movements reacted against this factory mass produced and sometimes highly decorated/polished silver by going back to basics; old fashioned hand made silver, hand hammered & hand raised silver.
http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t ... -movement/

Before and after the Russian Revolutions some Russian silver smiths/factory owners fled Russia. Unfortunately many good Russians were killed in various wars; 1st & 2nd World Wars, the Russian revolutions and under Stalin.

Oel.

[tolly123]

Hi Oel,

Thank you very much for clarifying that for me I find this period of Russian history quite interesting.

Were pieces like this made for the new Russian aristocracy (i.e. politicians, generals, scientists and so on) or more for the export market?

Tolly