Fork - 1795 or 1835? Contradictive hallmarks

marabod · Post by **marabod** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:44 am

This is definitely a sterling fork, I tested it two ways on drop-tests. Jaguar is crowned, duty mark is 18th-19th century, but the date letter, being compared with the one in the table for London from this site falls onto 1835, not onto 1795 - which seems impossible due to the coincidence in the earlier dating for duty mark and city mark. Anyone can explain, please?

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Post by **dognose** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:02 am

Hi Marabod,

Your fork is 1795. The marks for 1795 and 1835 are very similar, but if it were 1835, the Leopards Head would be uncrowned and the Duty Mark would be that of William IIII.

Regards Trev.
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marabod · Post by **marabod** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:44 pm

Thank you, Trev - but unfortunately this is not completely explaining the issue. Date letters are very similar, I fully agree, however the way they are shown in the London date letters table, they still have two different features - shape of the shield and shape of the letter itself. The shield on the fork is not like it is shown for 1795 but the one for 1835. The letter "u" for 1795 in the table is slightly italisized, while the one shown for 1835 is exactly matching the one on the fork.

I wonder if the expired date letter punches could be stored and re-used in the next cycle? This could explain the usage of one punch for two different years...
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salmoned · Post by **salmoned** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:00 pm

I believe Blakstone once said the lion passant guardant would be found at right angles to the other marks before 1835, and no other feature of your marks suggest the latter date [to me].
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Post by **admin** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:51 pm

The Lions Passant were recently added to the Silver Glossary
The Lion Passant Guardant ceased being used ca. 1821, his head is turned forward after that. Some sources list the change date as 1820, although more seem to go with 1822.

Regards, Tom
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marabod · Post by **marabod** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:14 am

Thank you very much! I've learned something... Next I will try to find out why the axe is engraved on the underside, not on the outer surface. Most of antique cuttlery pieces I had before were engraved on the side opposite to the hallmarks.
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Post by **dognose** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:54 am

Hi Marabod,

You fork is made in the Hanoverian pattern, this was the popular style prior to the Old English pattern. It was laid on the table in the French manner i.e. with the prongs pointing downwards, the same applies to spoons, this is why the engraving is on the underside.

Regards Trev.
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buckler · Post by **buckler** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:48 pm

According to Forbes HALLMARK A History of the London Assay Office.
(p 242- 243) .... in 1821 John Smith, the punch engraver who succeeded John Pingo, "was instructed to produce new designs for the leopards head and the lion passant . A few trial punches were made in combination with the date letter for 1821 and used during part of that year for marking spoons. Then in May 1822 all the existing punches were destroyed and replaced by new ones incorporating the modified designs The major change was the crown on the leopards head which....was omitted. At the same time the form of the standard mark for sterling silver was altered from a lion passant guardant to a lion passant .

Forbes is extremely reliable, if prone to an occasional reluctance to report some matters showing the Goldsmiths Company in a less than favourable light

I must admit that although Forbes reports that all existing punches were destroyed, he really means, that they were instructed to be destroyed and it is not unlikely that a few survived. The human element must not be ignored. However the chances of BOTH the old lion passant guardant , and the old crowned leopard being used in 1825 on a piece simultaneouly by mistake are so remote as to be virtually impossible. Particularly as by this date virually all marks were done on a fly press in one block or stub.
I would be 99.9% certain of a 1795 dating

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Post by **dognose** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:37 pm

Hi,

Two types of shield were used for the date letter from 1776 until 1875, one with a rounded base and one with a point.
From 1810 the Lion Passant is at right angles to the other hallmarks on flatware.
The Duty Mark for William IV was struck as from the 1834-35 "t" date letter.
It's 1795, 100%

Trev.
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marabod · Post by **marabod** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:35 am

You fork is made in the Hanoverian pattern

Wow! Trev... I am impressed, nothing else to add. It takes time and love to the subject to learn the details like that! This is actually the first piece I see engraved on the underside, but, again, I was never as deep in antiques as you, guys, for me it is a mere hobby. Before this discussion it never occured to me that there is a difference in the position of the lion's head - but this one is well rubbed off and at closer look I only can see his open mouth facing myself, so I initially took it for a common 19th century passant. I never had English silver pieces of 18th century before to learn the difference, only Dutch and Russian. The Dutch one (it was a spice stand) had also lion passant, but do not remember the head position, I dont have it anymore.

Great success of this thread inspires me to post another enquiry soon, this time in European silver forum. Thank you all very much for helping me with the fork!!! Can always pay back by answering any question on Silver chemistry, work with it for 30 years.
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