Haller and Rathemau spoon

Post by **Granmaa** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:22 am

Could someone tell me anything about these marks on a fiddle pattern table spoon with an engraved drop.

Miles

blakstone · Post by **blakstone** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:12 pm

Haller & Rathenau was an important 19th century Berlin jewelry, silver and fancy goods firm founded in1842 by Joseph Haller (1772-1838) and Benjamin Rathenau (b.1798); they were court Jewelers to both the King of Prussia and Prince Friedrich of the Netherlands.

The “bear/K” mark is that of Berlin primary assayer J. C. S. Kessner, working 1819-1854 and the “B in a circle” is the mark of secondary assayer C. F. Deppe, working 1842-1847.

The “K” mark I don’t know, but it is almost certainly the actual manufacturer, either a workman for or supplier to Haller and Rathenau.

Hope this helps!

Post by **Granmaa** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:25 pm

I should say it helps! Thankyou very much.

Miles

7727alex · Post by **7727alex** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:17 pm

Amazing to have answer to this question. I have a set of forks and spoons with these marks on them and was despairing of ever identifying them. To Blakstone, what is your source? Thanks.

blakstone · Post by **blakstone** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:05 pm

Berliner Goldschmiede by Wolfgang Scheffler. It's the standard work on Berlin gold- & silversmiths. I do not have a copy myself (it's out of print and monstrously expensive - usually $500 and up) but I keep a running list of things to look up in it and do so whenever I'm near a library that has a copy.

7727alex · Post by **7727alex** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:49 pm

Blakstone, thanks. I may not be able to find this book in Ottawa, Canada. My set has the mark L in the lozenge with the Berlin lion as well as beside this what looks to be a D or perhaps an R in elaborate script and an M just before Haller and Rathenau. I assume the L is for the primary assayer and the D or R for the secodary assayers.I would post a photo but am not sure how to do it.

(admin note - please read Posting Requirements)

Bahner · Post by **Bahner** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:29 am

Hello, the university of Toronto seems to be the only library in Canada which holds a copy. They don’t loan it, though. The mark of the first Berlin warden is punched in a circle or an oval (not a lozenge), together with the Berlin bear. The second warden’s mark also appears in a circle. Neither the first nor the second warden used the letter “R”. The “L” in a lozenge must be the mark of the actual maker. Neither Sarre nor Scheffler document it, though. But Scheffler is quite weak on marks. He gives biographical data for over 2500 names, but documents about 450 marks only. A pic might help…. Best wishes, Bahner

7727alex · Post by **7727alex** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:30 pm

I have been trying to post an image but apparently this site will only accept images posted on the web. You are correct the "L" is in a circle with the Berlin bear. The next mark "D" or "R" (highly stylized sort of Gothic style is also in a separate circle. Then there is a simple "M" before the name Haller & Rathenau. Thanks for your patience.

Bahner · Post by **Bahner** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:22 pm

Hello, "L" plus bear was used between 1854 and 1863, "D" as the second warden's mark (L. Th. Wendelboe) was used between 1854 and 1864. "R" was not used by the second warden. "M" is probably the real maker, Scheffler dos not document it. Best wishes, Bahner

7727alex · Post by **7727alex** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:12 pm

Thanks ever so much.

Alex

Theoderich · Post by **Theoderich** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:23 am

blakstone wrote:Berliner Goldschmiede by Wolfgang Scheffler. It's the standard work on Berlin gold- & silversmiths. I do not have a copy myself (it's out of print and monstrously expensive - usually $500 and up) but I keep a running list of things to look up in it and do so whenever I'm near a library that has a copy.

Hallo

Can you tell me - which year the "K" or other letters in the SilverMark of Berlin are?

Bahner · Post by **Bahner** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:46 am

Hello, the K plus the Berlin bear was used ca. 1819 - 1854. Best wishes, Bahner

kerangoumar · Post by **kerangoumar** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:56 pm

Re Berliner Goldschmiede -

though U of T does not usually lend the book you may be able to get it through the InterLibrary Loan Service - they send the book to your library but you won't be able to take it home. Expect to pay postage.

Failing that, most libraries are very amenable when it comes to photocopying, particularly if it is out of print or out of copyright (if it is not, expect to pay copying royalty in addition to copying fee) so if you have specific information that you want they will send it to you.