Paris 1723-24

[84zolotnik]

Hello, Sugar bowl, Paris 1723-24.
Master mark "GR". Anyone know it? Any help is welcome.
Thanks

[oel]

Not 18th century Paris. These are German, Hanau pseudo marks, Georg Roth & Co.
Georg Roth & Co originally worked as the Hanauer Silberwaren-Manufaktur (1891-1906) in Hanau, Germany after which he worked under his own name using the mark “GR crowned"
See:
https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_hanau_marks_01.html

Peter.

[84zolotnik]

You are mistaken. The style of the subject is clearly French, not German!!!
The crowned "G" Paris 1723-24. There is none in Hanau.
Georg Roth does not have a dot between the "GR", I do. Georg Roth has the "GR" in a heart, I don't, and there is an star under it.

[oel]

I could be mistaken but I believe these to be pseudo marks.
Hanau used a pseudo crowned G, and copied among other things French silver styles. For Hanau crowned G; see Neresheimer [s514] and Wolf & Knell [npr]
Also in the 18th century, four major marks were used in France: maker's mark, mark of charge, mark of discharge, mark of "maison commune (jurande)". Your item shows only three marks. Let us wait for other reactions of our contributors with knowledge of 18th century French hallmarks.
https://www.silvercollection.it/FRENCHHALLMARKSOLD.html
I stand to be corrected.


Peter

[AG2012]

Of course it`s Hanau, most likely Georg Roth, who specialized in ``antique`` French silver.

During decades of researching and collecting silver I have seen wishful thinking too many times when Hanau silver was involved.
Common mistakes by inexperienced collectors:
1.They expect perfect match in Hanau recorded marks. In fact, Hanau silversmiths used every possible combination of marks and most of the time only one mark is enough to positively identify Hanau silver. (Meaning, mentioning ``dot or no dot`` is completely irrelevant when discussing Hanau silver).
2.The style of the object, the technique and decor are inseparable from marks when judging; this sugar bowl screams ``Hanau`` (finial, handles, legs, overall decor).

Do not be disappointed; we all have bought silver with pseudo marks.
Regards

[JayT]

Hello
Agree with others that this sugar bowl isn’t French. The marks aren’t correct, and the style is a “pastiche,” a copy or mixture of 18th Century styles - everything from Rococo to Neo-Classical, all in one object, with some fanciful design elements thrown into the mix, like the handles. This is the type of decorative item so dear to Hanau manufacturers.
Regards

[84zolotnik]

Hello,
Thank you all for your help. I am not a novice collector, I have more than 30 years of silver history behind me.
I am aware that many pseudo hallmarks were used in Hanau, many of which were similar to the ancient French.
Even so, these marks do not seem clearly Hanau to me. I have not seen these hallmarks in this form on any Hanau master.
You assume that it is Hanau, I assume that it is French. One master's name came up, Georg Roth.
But he did not use these marks, only similar ones. The GR master mark never appeared in this form.
Greetings

[AG2012]

[blakstone]

I must concur that this is a Georg Roth pastiche. The marks are demonstrably not that of 1723 Paris, an example of which AG2012 has posted. If anything, the letter "P" on your piece is in imitation of the Warden's/Jurande mark of 1784-1789 at which time there would have been no crowned "date" letter, which served precisely the same function; a crowned letter Warden's/Jurande mark would only have been used in conjunction with a charge mark in in some form of the letter "A", absent from your piece (as is any discharge mark). Similarly, the "maker's mark" does not appear in any reference I have on ancien regime Paris silver, nor does it follow the prescribed form with a crowned fleur-de-lis and "two grains of remedy". I also note that concentric striations on the lid interior suggest that it was raised on a modern spinning chuck.

As the marks are unequivocally not 1723 French and the decoration and construction have nothing at all in common with Regence silver of the 1720s, then we must ask what it could be. I would opine that it is not so much in the style of Hanau reproductions in general but of Georg Roth in particular, with his ubiquitous ribboned medallions, fat laurel swags and spindly applied feet and handles. That the "GR" mark is unrecorded is nonetheless damning: all the evidence points away from Paris and directly to Roth.