Silverplated snuff box mark ID

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:26 pm

Hi, I've got what I think is a silverplated snuff box, and I'm trying to date it and identify the maker. I`ve looked within the site, and some of the marks correspond to sterling silver marks, I think, but there`s only 3 instead of 5 marks, so I figure it might be silverplated.

There are pictures below, but after 40 or so tries, these are the clearest I can get of the mark.

head facing left - J.T - lion

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

carling · Post by **carling** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:11 pm

It looks like an English sterling silver castle top vinaigrette box possibly made by John Tongue. I think I can see a grille in your second picture. If you lift the grille there should be three further marks on the inside base: J.T (again), Birmingham Assay Office anchor mark and a date letter.

Regards/carling

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:25 pm

Hi, thanks so much! Yes, I lifted the grill and did indeed find the anchor mark of Birmingham and the J.T again, and a rather fancy "M" mark. Glad to know what the item is, as well! Thanks again :)

carling · Post by **carling** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:28 pm

I would guess that the fancy M is actually a fancy W for Birmingham 1845. I am envious. I don't have a John Tongue castle top box in my collection. I am glad to see you haven't cleaned it.
http://www.925-1000.com/dlBirmingham.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards/carling

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:46 pm

Pulled out the trusty magnifying glass, and yep, you're right again - it does indeed appear to be a W. Crazy, I think that means it's officially the oldest thing I own :) Now I just have to try to nail down exactly which castle it depicts! I didn't dare clean it, as I've got no experience, and I've always heard that attempting to clean antiques would more than likely cause more damage than good if not done by a professional. Again, thanks muchly for all the info!

carling · Post by **carling** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:52 pm

I think it's Windsor castle - the most commonly found pictorial on boxes of this type. Not that your box is by any means common. It is a very desirable piece indeed and you should treasure it. There is a section on cleaning silver on this site which you may wish to look at. Uncleaned silver is just a personal preference. Bad cleaning can damage silver quite easily. I once saw vinaigrette box that had been left too long in Silver Dip solution. It destroyed the gilding inside and turned it completely black. Ruined it really.

Regards/carling

carling · Post by **carling** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:01 pm

Here's the link. I just re-read it to refresh my memory:

http://www.925-1000.com/aPolish.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also take a look at the discussions under Silver Care / Techniques.

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Thanks, that's so helpful! Seeing what can be done to damage it make think it might be best to have a professional clean it. I guess a jeweler could do it, right? I'll do more reading before I decide :)

I've looked online, and castle top vinagriettes do seem to be uncommon, but I was unable to find a single one by John Tongue, most seem to be down by a Nathaniel Mills. I did get a confirmation from my mother that it is indeed Windsor castle - she was given it by an old lady in the 70's, who claim that it was such. This has been wonderful, getting all this information!

carling · Post by **carling** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:21 am

Yes, castle top vinaigrettes, snuff boxes, card cases etc are very much associated with Nathaniel Mills. I can think of a few other makers who produced them such as Taylor & Perry, Alfred Taylor and I've seen at least one by James Fenton.

I daresay a jeweller could make your vinaigrette shine like a new pin but I should personally hesitate to let anyone near it who wasn't sympathetic to antique silver. One man's ugly tarnish is another's rich patina! It really depends on you and how you want your silver to look but if ever you contemplate selling it then leave it as it is. There are probably as many views on cleaning silver as there are silver collectors. If it were mine I should most probably leave it as it is or if I wanted to display it I might wash away any visible surface grime with water and a soft cloth and maybe a give the high spots a gentle polish with a silver cloth to achieve a sort of contrast.

Regards/carling

Hose_dk · Post by **Hose_dk** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:56 pm

Whats happening ?
If it was mine - the first thing I would do is to polish and polish until it becomes shining.
This piece has NEVER intentionally been dirty. It not patina it is dirt. And therefor it should disappear. You will be surpriced when you see how butiful it can be when all that dirt is removed.

So start to polish - silver is sopposed to be shining!

Butifull box - by the way. but polish.

salmoned · Post by **salmoned** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:38 pm

I doubt I'd go that far, but cleaning and moderate tarnish removal enhance beauty and value - tarnish can hide details and defects.

buckler · Post by **buckler** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:24 pm

The whole question of cleaning is very personal but may I put the traditional view.
Silver achieves a patination over the years - and we are talking perhaps two to three hundred years - which is usually a very slight grey tint . It is still shiny, but a mellow shine. Do not confuse patination with dirt, which can be washed off with soap and water, tarnish which can be removed with carefull use of metal polish, and patination which is actually very hard to remove. Hard but not impossible if the cleaner is misguided enough to mechanically clean, or overuse a strong dip. My own view is that the use of silver dip is a very bad thing in all cases, but then I'm very much a purist. The trade, or rather the lower end of the trade, mechanically cleans virtually everything as its simple, easy and the less knowledgeable client prefers the hard bright finish. But mechanical cleaning also takes off a lot of the detail (as does excessive use of polishing)
So by all means wash in warm soapy water. Remove engrained dirt with a wooden cocktail tick (the silver is harder than the wood) . Clean with duraglit as infrequently as you can (ALL polish removes some silver and hence definition) and avoid mechanical cleaning like the plague. And especially avoid dealers whose stock is so clean and bright it might be new - they are not doing the silver or their clients any favours. Flatware of little historic merit may be cleaned mechanically, but remember that what we regard today as of little merit may be well regarded by our children
The true silver collector will usually reject anything without a good patination - and although it takes time to recognise it - develop that art.

Hose_dk · Post by **Hose_dk** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:24 pm

I fully agree - use "man power" never mashinery. A soft piece of cotton and a mild polish cream.
But it should still be shining - and not black.

buckler · Post by **buckler** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:34 am

That exactly it. But beware of over regular cleaning - I only clean when I begin to feel ashamed to show a piece to some-one !

The other thing about buying in a black condition and hand polishing is that you can leave a minute amount of tarnish to add contast and depth to the detail, which if a bit worn, makes it looks much better.

kerangoumar · Post by **kerangoumar** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:42 am

just debated myself for several days before cleaning a Binder art nouveau jampot holder. it was black with lovely iridescence of purple and blue with shots of gold overtones in the oxides. i know that the "leave-the-dirt" aesthetic of american antique furniture is in the process of infecting the silver world. heated discussions even on eBay! but the longer i looked at it the more obvious it became that at least half the detail of the stylization and hammered and punched background would remain lost under that black skin. so i compromised with a half-way solution that might appeal sufficiently to some of you to try it.

first i wrapped the piece closely in a cleaning cloth impregnated with jeweller's rouge. while this does not sound like it would do anything it would appear to loosen the skin which, after a week, is relatively easily disposed of with a few energetic wipes. then some cleaning cream with more jeweller's rouge - this is where it gets down & dirty: put the cream on your hands and mush it about until it is evenly distributed then just caress the silver until all the cream is on it and your hands are black.

LOL.

sounds rather kindergartenish but is not as drastic as applying the cream on a cloth and beavering away. depending on the purity of the silver you can leave drag marks even with a relatively soft cloth. all you need is some slubbing that collects the rouge which then picks up the oxides. the last thing is to rinse and then gently soap (try to use cocoa butter soap) and rinse, flannel dry and air dry.

this method is not as drastic as the other gentle method i recommended to TheoryofI who wanted to clean filigree cufflinks(Sep 03, 2007 3:29 pm) - this method preserves most of the patination under the black skin.

one other thing: if you have an unevenly tarnished item a used cloth (that has a fair bit of the oxide already on it) will kick-start the polishing process. like attracts like, it seems.