Master EC in a German town with 3 towers?

[zilverik]

Hello,

This jug has a weight of 518 grams which is quite heavy for a jug of just 21 cm high.
Looks to me like German early/middle 18e century. The town mark could maybe be Hamburg or Mariënburg, but maybe another town. The other mark doesn't make sense to me. I couldn't find any master EC in Rosenberg. Any idea?

[zilverik]

Sorry, I mean this jug.

[zilverik]

Better photo of the third mark that I can't understand.

[zilverik]

Altona?

[zilverik]

The townmark for Madrid looks very much at this townmark with three towers. See Fernandez et al, Marcas de la Plata, Madrid 1992, page 222-228. If its Madrid, who is master EC?

[amena]

I am no expert on Spanish silver, but it seems to me that the Madrid castle should have the date underneath.

Could it be Valladolid?

Although the EC mark does not look very Spanish to me-
Regards
Amena

[zilverik]

Thank you for your response. In Fernandez, Marcas de la plata there is stated that the mark of Madrid is with or without the numbers. Mid and early 18e century it is mostly without numbers. Master EC isn’t in that book.

[amena]

Yes you are right.
Let's see if anyone can shed some light on the mystery

[zilverik]

Hi, I received a private message, content: “It's not a Spanish mark, although with a bit of imagination it could resemble a castle, I don't recognize it that way, and at that time, silversmiths marked it with their full name, never with their initials.”. So, not Spanish. Anyone with an idea?

[oel]

Perhaps for Harburg, Germany?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harburg,_Hamburg
For more information see W Scheffler, Goldschmiede Niedersachsen.

Peter.

Source; Helmut Seling, Helga Domdey-Knödler, European town marks

[zilverik]

Thank you Peter! Good hint. In Wolfgang Scheffler, Goldschmidt Niedersachsens, volume 2, I indeed found the townmark of Harburg. And I found more towns with similar townmarks with three towers. The pages under “Architecture” consists over 100 townmarks. From Harburg indeed, but also Steinkirchen, Celle, Hamburg, Nienburg, Oldenburg, Lauenburg. So, there is hope. However, up till now I didn’t find any master EC in any of these towns. Maybe an unknown master in one of these towns?

[zilverik]

What about the third mark? It looks like a flower or three leaves. Any idea what the mark is?

[Aguest]

::::: The general construction of the object and the peculiar blobby/blurry characteristics of the hallmarks have me thinking about Chinese Export Silver. :::::::

:::::::::::: I've been led on a wild goose chase before and there's something here that really reminds me of that previous wild goose chase. ::::::::::::::

[zilverik]

Fake hallmarks could be. But Chinese export silver?
See the Christie’s article about Chinese export silver:
https://search.app/7nN8DRydbPtBB4R4A

[Aguest]

::::: Yes both China and India were copying traditional English forms and hallmarking them in various ways, sometimes with the hallmark of the workshop, but other times with hallmarks that don't seem to correspond to the workshop mark. ::::::

::::: I have a scent box (pounce box essence box) that was stamped with the CUTSHING workshop hallmarks but also other pseudo-hallmarks and I went on a wild goose-chase around England and Europe for a few weeks. :::::::::::

:::::: The hallmarks are in a location that you would most likely find on an English pitcher (creamer) so the entire object seems to be attempting to imitate a traditional English form, and if you don't look too closely at the hallmarks you would mistake this for an English object, also there is something about the construction of the object that doesn't fit with the English & German pitchers (creamers) that I have seen, there is something just a little bit "off" about the construction, it's like a silversmith is imitating an object that he has in his workshop. ::::::::::::::::

::::::::: My best guess is that this was made in a 19th century workshop in China, whether you wish to call it a "fake" or a "forgery" or whatever word you wish to use is up to you. ::::::::::::::::

[zilverik]

Convincing. Your guess is the best evidence based guess uptill now. Thank you!

[Aguest]

:::: It could be poorly imitating the Edinburgh castle hallmark and the "Rose Of Montrose" flower hallmark as seen on Provincial Scottish Silver :::::::::

:::::::::::::::::: Perhaps an attempt to simulate Scottish hallmarks just well enough to duty-dodge its way into England from China. ::::::::::::::::

[Aguest]

:::: One final thought I've been thinking about. ::::: Notice the way the spout is shaped, kind of like it's too flat to properly pour water? ::::: Is it possible for you to put water in this pitcher and observe how the water flows out from the spout? :::: That spout really doesn't seem well-designed to pour water, but I could be wrong. :::::: Is it possible that the Chinese workshop really didn't care about how well the spout was designed because the entire point of this object was to get a heavy amount of silver shipped from China into England and hopefully the customs officials allow the pitcher into England without paying a duty? :::::::

::::: Something about that spout just looks a little flat to my eyes, and I was just wondering how well it functioned during the pouring of water. ::;;

[zilverik]

The pouring of water with this pitcher went very well. Very accurate. No loss of water, even with very small pouring.

[zilverik]

The way of hallmarking on the pitcher is more like the English than the 18e century German way. Looking at the mastermark EC I couldn’t find these initials in Rosenberg (none) and Wolfgang Scheffler. In Jackson, English goldsmiths and their Marks there are a lot masters with the initials EC. Best resembling to be found on pages 84, 144, 181, 209 (Ebenezer Coker, 1763), 615 (Dublin, E.Crofton, 1822), 716 (unascribed Irish Provincial Marks, 1760). So the maker of the pitcher probably used an English mastermark as example.