Russian box

[charlesk]

Is this a genuine antique piece?
If so, is it judaic or requisitioned at a later date.
Many thanks

[Juke*]

Hi!

It is a fake. Also the claimed Gratchev brothers mark is clearly wrong. Typically all judaic style works are later copies and fakes.

Regards,
Juke

[charlesk]

Hi Juke,

Thanks so much for your reply.

Do you have the real makers mark?

Much appreciated.
Charles

[Juke*]

Here is an example of the Gratchev brothers mark.

[DEVS]

First of all this information about the hallmark is not true: this is an accurate hallmark of Grachev factory before the 1892. Between 1892 and 1895 it was used with an eagle.
By the way the state hallmark on your item is quite strange for the shape of the numbers.

[Juke*]

Yes the marks DEVS shows are also accurate and genuine.

I only had an example of the later Gratchev brothers mark from the 1908-17 period. How can you claim that the control mark on this one would not be a genuine one? It is one very clear control mark with exactly the '84' number as it should be!

Even that DEVS shown mark is genuine it doesn't change the fact that the item is a fake one and the mark not stroke as it should be. The mark on the item is just a mess and as I previously mentioned typically claimed judica items are fakes or later copies.

[DEVS]

I did not make any statement if this item was fake or not: I do not have enough information to do it.
By the way I made a comment about your statement on marks as I have enough knowledge about Grachev’s history and works.
There is no any “mess” with the posted hallmarks. On contrary they are all corresponding:
“Grachev” mark was used up to 1892. It is correct as the item is dated 1886.
И.Е - Ivan Evstigneyev (1870-1894) - correct.
Next to ГРАЧЕВ mark there is a mark “AH” - the author of this piece. It is also correct as Grachev did not have his own factory up to 1889. But I personally never seen any item with AH mark before.
The state hallmark is from Saint Petersburg - also correct.
But the shape of numbers 84 and the sign of Saint Petersburg seems to me a little bit strange, but it does not mean it is fake, it should be checked with microscope.
We have a lot of silver items with fake state hallmarks 84. Nothing unusual.

[Juke*]

I understand what you mean and how you are reasoning it. The first thing of course is to check that the items mark is corresponding to the correct masters mark, control mark and the city mark. It is also true that Gratchev had masters working for it during that period. However there is no indication in literature that I know of, that there would have been a master AH working for Gratchev which is a first red flag.

The mark on the shown item has been machine carved/casted from an authentic one and there are several indications of it. A machine carved mark is shallow with thin letters. Also there are irregularities in sharpness/straightness of the letters and the marks edges. In comparison a stroked mark has very sharp details, letters and edges which is very difficult to fake.

The last killing factor is that even the spelling of Gratchev on the fake mark is wrong. Most probably who ever did the fake mark didn't even know the Russian language. Nothing one would expect from an Russian state control officer.

I have seen these fake marks also before during my long time as a collector. I found one more Gratchev mark to show in addition of those shown by you from literature. If you look and compare yourself these following two pictures you can see the differences.

[charlesk]

Gents, thank you so much for your valuable help.
It's sad to see people pry on those that are less knowledgeable and this resource is invaluable