Antique Christian plate / Armenian ?

[Yonisinai]

Hello every one , looking for more information about this lovely plate , year ? Country ? City ?
I’m assuming it’s European silver
the text on the plate look Armenian if not mistaken , the silver marks looks like a letter , and the engravings is of a Christian Saint
Many thanks in advance 🙏

[Sasropakis]

I can't help with the age/origin of the plate but the picture depicts Jesus and is more specifically called Arma Christi or the instruments of the passion. For more information see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arma_Christi

[Yonisinai]

Thank you, sasropakis , for your feedback. Much appreciated.
If anyone else has any more input, I would be grateful to hear from you.
Thanks again

[anikopol]

Hi,

Unfortunatly, I cannot provide information reagrding the marks.
Concerning the object itself, I think it is may well be a paten (used with a chalice for the celebration of the Eucharist) instead of a standard plate.

[Aguest]

::::::::::::: The inside of the plate is raised in such a way that makes me wonder if this is an "underplate" or a "saucer" that holds a communion cup firmly in place, there are some finely engraved sets of saucers with communion cups from Armenia that I've seen, so even though on first glance I did think it was a Paten, it could have originally been a saucer and communion cup pair of objects. :::::::::

:::::::::::::::::::::::::: The hole would have been made later in order to mount on a wall? ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

[Aguest]

:::::: I would be interested in seeing a picture of the entirety of the back of the plate, the whole back side of the plate, because in the second picture it seems like this might be a sort of "platform" upon which a communion cup or a chalice would be placed. ::::::::: This might not make sense in a modern context because today we would be saying something like "why would a cup be placed over an image of Christ?" but there may have been different traditions a hundred years (or more?) ago in the Armenian Church, or other Orthodox Church in the region :::::::::::::



::::::::: Just looking for some Armenian objects that might be close enough to be a match, still working on it. :::::::::::::::::::

[Aguest]

:::::: 16th Century :::::



:::::::::: Historical significance: This object is not marked however it is likely that it was made in Burgos in Spain. An almost identical chalice is at the church of San Pedro y Felices, Burgos. It differs only in having a different coat of arms and the inscription +OFRECIO. IVAN.DELLA. H OZ.1549. It bears the Burgos mark and two marks QA/DL and RO. ::::::::

[Aguest]

::::: A letter was found on a 17th century Spanish silver plate, this is perhaps a letter "M" according to the description. ::::::

[Aguest]

:::: These are images of Christ on 17th & 16th century silver Patens from Spain, one seems to have a ladder of clouds ascending to heaven, so I guess that answers one question about the image of Christ being present on a silver plate (paten) but around 1800 it seems like this tradition fell out of favor and more plain silver plates (patens) were becoming more popular with less and less designs on them. :::::::::::::

[Aguest]

::::: I found that inscription on an Armenian silver box mid-19th century: :::

[Yonisinai]

Thank you so much for all the information , descriptions and examples of photos you shared 🙏
Here is the photo of the backside of the plate

[Yonisinai]

Hi , see photo of the backside side in the last reply 🙏

:::::: I would be interested in seeing a picture of the entirety of the back of the plate, the whole back side of the plate, because in the second picture it seems like this might be a sort of "platform" upon which a communion cup or a chalice would be placed. ::::::::: This might not make sense in a modern context because today we would be saying something like "why would a cup be placed over an image of Christ?" but there may have been different traditions a hundred years (or more?) ago in the Armenian Church, or other Orthodox Church in the region :::::::::::::



::::::::: Just looking for some Armenian objects that might be close enough to be a match, still working on it. :::::::::::::::::::

[Yonisinai]

The photo added here belongs to one of the plates u showed after ?
Or is just an example of antique silver hallmarks that u compared to the hallmarks that I showed in my plate because it’s similar ?

::::: A letter was found on a 17th century Spanish silver plate, this is perhaps a letter "M" according to the description. ::::::

[Aguest]

:::::::::::: That's from a 17th century Spanish silver plate, I didn't include a picture of the entire plate. :::::::::::::::::;

:::::::::::: The closest matches I could find are the plates from Spain, so I was wondering if it was possible that the plate was made in Spain and then imported to Armenia where it was then engraved with the Armenian letters. I found a reference to wealthy Armenians controlling the trade of imported luxury goods in the 18th century. So one theory is that the plate was made in Spain and imported into Armenia. It seems like it would have been easier for a skilled silversmith in Armenia/Constantinople to copy a Spanish silver plate, so that was a second thought, that this is a copy of a Spanish silver plate that was made in the Armenian region. :::::::::::::::::::

:::::::::::: Here's more information about that Spanish silver plate (hat tip BADA). ::::::::::::::





"The status of his countrymen within the Empire varied at that time, but the more affluent and sophisticated among them were able to commission exotic trinkets and indulge in extravagant fashions, for example Chinese export art. Furthermore, for most of the eighteenth century, the Ottoman trade in imported luxury goods was controlled by wealthy Armenians in Constantinople and other cities, and Chinese porcelain was particularly important among these goods."

[Aguest]

::::::: You know, the description doesn't specifically mention that third mark, so it may be a town mark or a guild mark for a certain place in Spain? :::::::::

"A Spanish silver plate from the first half of the 17th century. The whole plate is decorated with an interlocking pattern which is very typical of Iberian silver of this period; maker’s mark ‘M’ or ‘W’ struck twice on the reverse.

7 ozs in weight approximately and 8 ¾ inches in diameter."

::::::::: Curiously, the two "M or W" marks are mentioned, but that third mark is not mentioned? :::::::::::::::

[Aguest]

:::::: When I magnified your hallmark, I think there might be a "zig-zag" mark right below it, this is when a silver assay master chisels out a small "zig-zag" shaped line of silver and then uses that sample of silver to determine the silver purity, I just want to make sure that what I'm seeing is one of those "zig-zag" marks because it might be just a normal tiny scratch that the computer program is enhancing in a way that just resembles a "zig-zag" mark (there do seem to be other tiny scratches that are below that possible "zig-zag" mark so that might be just another tiny scratch). ::::::::



(((((((. the above is a "zig-zag" mark on a 19th century German silver object. ))))))))))))

::::::::: Also, is there another hallmark in the other magnification that I have shown? Do you think there is a hallmark there? ::::::::::::::