Silver buckle

[Granmaa]

Are there any buckle experts here who could suggest a date for this 3cm example. I'm going with 18th century, but I'd like to get closer.

Miles

[dmay]

Is Clive Taylor on this board? If not, there is another site, www.smpub.com, with a silver forum in which there is a definite English buckles expert, Clive Taylor (I use his name because he uses it as his ID on the site)-if you haven't participated, you will have to post under the new users section, but I am guessing Clive will respond.

I looked at the posting requirements before I typed this, so hopefully this is acceptable to mention another site. :)

[Granmaa]

Thankyou very much dmay; I don't know how, but I've never encountered that site before. I have asked Mr Taylor and will post his reply.

Miles

[Granmaa]

Here is Clive Taylor's kind reply:

The buckle is not complete, it is the
chape, prong and saddle pin, but is missing the frame. See attached.
It is English and the assay mark is the type used 1680 - 1697. Style is
right for that period. Some of the assay marks in the 1720 -1740 look
similar, especially in the provincial centres where they may have been
using old styles, but I am 95% sure this will be late 17th century.

Miles

[buckler]

I remember this buckle chape and tongue and my response (yes I am the dreaded buckle freak Clive) but not the detailed photo of the assay mark.
It looks like a CROWNED Lion Passant Guardant unless I have misintereted the photo.
Is it a crowned Lion ?
Clive

[Granmaa]

It's good to see some of these old posts again.
Yes, I think it is crowned.

Miles

[buckler]

This is exceedingly odd. According to Jackson there were only three forms of the Lion himself.
1544 - 1549 , Crowned Lion Passant Guardant
The first year was in a very square punch according to Jackson, all others being conformable
1550 -1821, Lion Passant Guardant
1821 - death of lion, Lion Passant

This Lion has the typical punch cartouche of the 1680 - 1697 but a crown not supposedly seen since 1550 !

Could I ask you please to carefully examine the actual piece and confirm that this is not an effect of the ears etc on the photo.

If we have a crown we have a new assay mark as far as I know .

[Granmaa]

It's at my parents' house at the moment, so I'm not sure when I can get hold of it. In the meantime I'll try to see what I can do with the original picture for you to judge.

Miles

[buckler]

Thanks Miles. The buckle has waited for three hundred years - it can wait a few more months ! I would much prefer an visual inspection opinion - photos are tricky !
Clive

[Granmaa]

Just for the meantime.

[buckler]

It certainly looks like a crown.

That has put the cat among the can of worms !

[Granmaa]

Clive, I don't know about others, but I happen to be very ignorant when it comes to lions of this period. If you have examples of the different periods you mentioned, please could you post them to help explain what the differences are.

Miles

[admin]

Clive, I don't know about others, but I happen to be very ignorant when it comes to lions of this period. If you have examples of the different periods you mentioned, please could you post them to help explain what the differences are.

Clive's wonderfully detailed answer can be found at
viewtopic.php?t=17445

[dognose]

Hi,

Just to add a little fuel to the fire.

Is there any chance that this could be a colonial piece? The use of a crowned lion has often been noted as being used by ex pat smiths.



Trev.

[buckler]

Sounds a very rational explanation. What object was the example you posted on ?

[dognose]

That was taken from a much later American example on a Baldwin Gardiner spoon, but the use of the crowned lion mark is a popular one around the world, although probably not during the timescale that you have put on this buckle.



The thought of a colonial maker was just me considering all possibilities. Just pokeing at it with a stick, to see what happens!

Trev.

[buckler]

I'm notoriously guarded when dating buckles. I've been wrong too many times, especially as "retro" styles were very popular in the second half of the 18th century . Much evidence suggests that older people, like today, often still bought the style and size they bought when they were young. Also shoes were amazingly expensive and were repaired and repaired until they resembled the famous original axe of my grandfather !

But this buckle chape was on a type of buckle that had, as far as I am aware, been totally abandoned by 1730 at the very latest. The prong is perhaps more characteristic of 1720 than 1680 but I am 99% sure the chape never have been made later than 1730.

So are we looking at a colonial silversmith around 1700 - 1730 - perhaps Americal ?

Or a new lion ?

[buckler]

Miles has very kindly loaned me the chape in question.

A close inspection with a magifying glass seemed to indicate that the "crown " was an illusion .

I then photographed it from below and above which confirms that is a late 17th century lion with no crown. Pity, it looked very convincing !

But I think more of a red herring that a crowned lion !


Verdict. The 17th century crowned lion passant is a red herring
Sorry to have wasted everyones time .