The marks in the base - the date letter could be anything
The marks in the lid - there are no marks on the grille
Book shaped vinaigrette
Book shaped vinaigrette
Hi All - bought this pretty book shaped vinaigrette as Birmingham 1825, and was just wondering who GW might be, but a closer look at the marks, especially the lion passant, makes me wonder if this is not an Anglo Indian or Chinese export piece. Any thoughts appreciated - Thanks Frank
The marks in the base - the date letter could be anything
The marks in the lid - there are no marks on the grille
The marks in the base - the date letter could be anything
The marks in the lid - there are no marks on the grille
Re: Book shaped vinaigrette
Hi Frank,
The marks look typical for Birmingham at this period. The only 'GW' that I can find registered before 1825, was George Waterhouse, who entered a mark as a Watchmaker in 1823, from Dale End, Birmingham. I dare say, if he could make watchcases, then he could have made your vinaigrette.
Hopefully we'll have the thoughts of others soon.
Regards, Trev.
The marks look typical for Birmingham at this period. The only 'GW' that I can find registered before 1825, was George Waterhouse, who entered a mark as a Watchmaker in 1823, from Dale End, Birmingham. I dare say, if he could make watchcases, then he could have made your vinaigrette.
Hopefully we'll have the thoughts of others soon.
Regards, Trev.
Re: Book shaped vinaigrette
Hi Trev - many thanks - we just don't for some reason get to see very many early Birmingham marks in SA. Fast forward to 1902 and they're prolific.
Regards Frank
Regards Frank
Re: Book shaped vinaigrette
Hi, To me this could quite easily be a post 1832 date mark with a possible candidate for the maker being Gervase Wheeler.
Re: Book shaped vinaigrette
Hello Frank
The Directory of Gold & Silversmiths Jewellers & Allied Traders 1838-1914 Vol. 1 p.478 by John Culme records that Wheeler was in partnership with the Birmingham silversmiths Ledsam & Vale from 1818-1830 as Ledsam Vale & Wheeler.
Wheeler was a London goldsmith who acted for the Birmingham manufacturers and had entered his own mark at Goldsmiths Hall in 1819 (Grimwade p.362).
His first known mark according to the Birmingham AO website was entered in 1831.This may not be coincidence if his partnership with Ledsam & Vale had ended in 1830.
Attribution of the maker’s mark to Wheeler depends on the accuracy of the Birmingham AO website in its publication of his first mark there to be 1831. As has been said in the previous posts it also depends on how one interprets the date letter and whether the watchmaker George Waterhouse turned his hand to making vinaigrettes.
Wheeler's makers mark is often seen on vinaigrettes.
My records indicate that Gervase Wheeler has been credited with using his own mark as early as 1802 but unfortunately (don’t we all have this trouble?) the evidence for this is not now to be found. Other records do show that he was involved in the Ledsam Vale & Wheeler partnership from 1818 and a mark of his own was recorded in London in 1819 but not in Birmingham until 1831. We have seen before on this Forum however that Assay Office records are not always accurate.
The date letter on this vinaigrette appears to me more like the gothic capital “B” used in Birmingham in 1825-6 than the letters “L-O” of the same style used at that office from 1834-1838 (this period is governed by the shape of the duty mark which reverted to oval in 1834 and, of course, the monarch depicted) but new reading glasses do not always give perfect results and I've been wrong before!
On balance and unusually for me because of a preferred reliance on what can be proved the vinaigrette may be one made by Ledsam & Vale and sent by them to Birmingham AO in 1825-6 under a punch they held for Gervase Wheeler which is unrecorded in BAO records for some reason. It was perhaps that punch which was replaced by Wheeler's own when the partnership ended.
Regards
Mike
The Directory of Gold & Silversmiths Jewellers & Allied Traders 1838-1914 Vol. 1 p.478 by John Culme records that Wheeler was in partnership with the Birmingham silversmiths Ledsam & Vale from 1818-1830 as Ledsam Vale & Wheeler.
Wheeler was a London goldsmith who acted for the Birmingham manufacturers and had entered his own mark at Goldsmiths Hall in 1819 (Grimwade p.362).
His first known mark according to the Birmingham AO website was entered in 1831.This may not be coincidence if his partnership with Ledsam & Vale had ended in 1830.
Attribution of the maker’s mark to Wheeler depends on the accuracy of the Birmingham AO website in its publication of his first mark there to be 1831. As has been said in the previous posts it also depends on how one interprets the date letter and whether the watchmaker George Waterhouse turned his hand to making vinaigrettes.
Wheeler's makers mark is often seen on vinaigrettes.
My records indicate that Gervase Wheeler has been credited with using his own mark as early as 1802 but unfortunately (don’t we all have this trouble?) the evidence for this is not now to be found. Other records do show that he was involved in the Ledsam Vale & Wheeler partnership from 1818 and a mark of his own was recorded in London in 1819 but not in Birmingham until 1831. We have seen before on this Forum however that Assay Office records are not always accurate.
The date letter on this vinaigrette appears to me more like the gothic capital “B” used in Birmingham in 1825-6 than the letters “L-O” of the same style used at that office from 1834-1838 (this period is governed by the shape of the duty mark which reverted to oval in 1834 and, of course, the monarch depicted) but new reading glasses do not always give perfect results and I've been wrong before!
On balance and unusually for me because of a preferred reliance on what can be proved the vinaigrette may be one made by Ledsam & Vale and sent by them to Birmingham AO in 1825-6 under a punch they held for Gervase Wheeler which is unrecorded in BAO records for some reason. It was perhaps that punch which was replaced by Wheeler's own when the partnership ended.
Regards
Mike
Re: Book shaped vinaigrette
Hi Mike, you make some interesting observations, but I still believe a case could be made for this being a worn or deformed "h" or "k" date letter, which would fit in with the known dates for Wheeler's mark.
Regards Martin.
Regards Martin.
Re: Book shaped vinaigrette
Hello Martin
Page 356 of Jackson's book shows the duty mark for Birmingham 1831-2 ("H") to 1833-4 ("K") wasn't oval in shape whereas the one on the vinaigrette is. Wear could change its shape but there are no clear signs that it was ever other than oval hence the comments that the date letter doesn't seem to resemble anything for 1834-5 ("L") to 1837-8 ("O") when the duty mark had returned to an oval surrounding a king's head. On the other hand the duty mark was in an oval shape for 1825-6 ("B").
Left unresolved, of course, is whether the king in the picture is George IV or William IV.
Regards
Mike
Page 356 of Jackson's book shows the duty mark for Birmingham 1831-2 ("H") to 1833-4 ("K") wasn't oval in shape whereas the one on the vinaigrette is. Wear could change its shape but there are no clear signs that it was ever other than oval hence the comments that the date letter doesn't seem to resemble anything for 1834-5 ("L") to 1837-8 ("O") when the duty mark had returned to an oval surrounding a king's head. On the other hand the duty mark was in an oval shape for 1825-6 ("B").
Left unresolved, of course, is whether the king in the picture is George IV or William IV.
Regards
Mike
Re: Book shaped vinaigrette
Hi Martin and Mike
Many thanks for your interesting observations - and my apologies for not replying sooner but I have been away.
I have included another picture of the date letter - in the hope that it may clear up some mysteries. Unfortunately the marks in the box are very difficult to photograph, it really is a tiny one and you need about four hands. It certainly could be an H or K - and I must admit that even when the marks are clear I find gothic capitals very difficult to decipher.
Looking at the duty mark, and Jacksons, would certainly look like the pre 1830 one.
One possible solution: If Ledsam and Vale were making for Wheeler could this not have been stamped for Wheeler intending to send it to London, but it got mixed up with a whole load of their other wares and sent to the Birmingham assay office by mistake. The assay office knowing a whole load of silver was from Ledsam and Vale may have not noticed the offending makers mark and once everything passed assay just started stamping. If so, I suppose this little vinaigrette would not be legal in the UK. Or is that just a wild flight of fancy?
Alternatively it's H for 1831 - the year Wheeler registered at Birmingham and maybe an old duty mark was used. Might there not be a couple of months in 1831 that coincided with Wheeler registering his mark, the new date letter H and the '1830' duty mark?
Appreciate your thoughts - regards Frank
Under the glass there is definitely the left hand stroke goes down deeper meaning if it was a B there would be something under the bottom of the B.
Many thanks for your interesting observations - and my apologies for not replying sooner but I have been away.
I have included another picture of the date letter - in the hope that it may clear up some mysteries. Unfortunately the marks in the box are very difficult to photograph, it really is a tiny one and you need about four hands. It certainly could be an H or K - and I must admit that even when the marks are clear I find gothic capitals very difficult to decipher.
Looking at the duty mark, and Jacksons, would certainly look like the pre 1830 one.
One possible solution: If Ledsam and Vale were making for Wheeler could this not have been stamped for Wheeler intending to send it to London, but it got mixed up with a whole load of their other wares and sent to the Birmingham assay office by mistake. The assay office knowing a whole load of silver was from Ledsam and Vale may have not noticed the offending makers mark and once everything passed assay just started stamping. If so, I suppose this little vinaigrette would not be legal in the UK. Or is that just a wild flight of fancy?
Alternatively it's H for 1831 - the year Wheeler registered at Birmingham and maybe an old duty mark was used. Might there not be a couple of months in 1831 that coincided with Wheeler registering his mark, the new date letter H and the '1830' duty mark?
Appreciate your thoughts - regards Frank
Under the glass there is definitely the left hand stroke goes down deeper meaning if it was a B there would be something under the bottom of the B.
Re: Book shaped vinaigrette
Hello Frank
I'm uncomfortable with the notion that the 1830-1 duty mark was used in 1831-2 so that the date letter might be "H" but as ever, if you decide that is what happened and "B" is less likely, then so be it.
As to the item carrying a GW mark intended for assay in London but mixed with Ledsam Vale items sent to Birmingham and dealt with there by mistake this would add weight to the possibility that there were Birmingham assayed items out there dated prior to 1831 with GW on them.
I wouldn't worry too much that the item might not be marked strictly in accordance with the law. After all it wouldn't be the only silver piece to carry a maker's mark apparently unregistered in the office which did the assay!
Regards
Mike
I'm uncomfortable with the notion that the 1830-1 duty mark was used in 1831-2 so that the date letter might be "H" but as ever, if you decide that is what happened and "B" is less likely, then so be it.
As to the item carrying a GW mark intended for assay in London but mixed with Ledsam Vale items sent to Birmingham and dealt with there by mistake this would add weight to the possibility that there were Birmingham assayed items out there dated prior to 1831 with GW on them.
I wouldn't worry too much that the item might not be marked strictly in accordance with the law. After all it wouldn't be the only silver piece to carry a maker's mark apparently unregistered in the office which did the assay!
Regards
Mike
Re: Book shaped vinaigrette
Hi Mike
Many thanks - my question about 1831 was more hypothetical in case the duty mark changed a month or so into the letter cycle. But you're right that it is probably B for 1825 looking at the marks as a whole. Now if only they had used nice clean Roman capitals.
And it is far more unlikely that the Birmingham assay office would get a duty punch wrong than they would assay something - possibly in a large lot of silver - with the incorrect makers mark. Besides I like the mystery that goes with the piece. And surely the old duty punches would have been destroyed anyway.
And as you say it would not be a first. I have a belt buckle - that obviously goes together - same maker same year, one half assayed in Birmingham, the other in Chester.
Thanks for you time and thoughts on this vinaigrette
Regards Frank
Many thanks - my question about 1831 was more hypothetical in case the duty mark changed a month or so into the letter cycle. But you're right that it is probably B for 1825 looking at the marks as a whole. Now if only they had used nice clean Roman capitals.
And it is far more unlikely that the Birmingham assay office would get a duty punch wrong than they would assay something - possibly in a large lot of silver - with the incorrect makers mark. Besides I like the mystery that goes with the piece. And surely the old duty punches would have been destroyed anyway.
And as you say it would not be a first. I have a belt buckle - that obviously goes together - same maker same year, one half assayed in Birmingham, the other in Chester.
Thanks for you time and thoughts on this vinaigrette
Regards Frank
Re: Book shaped vinaigrette
Hello again Frank
Glad to have been part of creating a mystery for you about the vinaigrette. Any time!
The two parts of the buckle may not be another opportunity to weave another tale of possible intrigue however. Many Birmingham manufacturers had maker's marks registered at both that office and at Chester. Bits sent for assay to either office could well be assembled together to form a completed belt buckle and result in the metal being confirmed as standard silver by two offices.
What more reassurance against garment slippage could anyone want?
Mike
Glad to have been part of creating a mystery for you about the vinaigrette. Any time!
The two parts of the buckle may not be another opportunity to weave another tale of possible intrigue however. Many Birmingham manufacturers had maker's marks registered at both that office and at Chester. Bits sent for assay to either office could well be assembled together to form a completed belt buckle and result in the metal being confirmed as standard silver by two offices.
What more reassurance against garment slippage could anyone want?
Mike