Caddy Spoon. Is it Dutch?

[peachez]

Hello,

I am having trouble with the marks on this spoon. I'm not even sure if it's Dutch! It's approximately 8cms long and the bowl is decorated with a windmill and a little house. The end of the spoon is a ship. There are two sets of marks. On the inside of the bowl is what I think is the maker's mark which is not clear but could be R.M.L or B.M.L., plus a ?tulip/thistle, 925 and a capital N. On the reverse of the bowl are other marks, even less clear, one of them is a crown over a shield with a capital R. Any help on its origin and age would be much appreciated.





Many thanks for taking a look...

[Doos]

Hi Peachez,

The first serie of marks (with the 925) is definatly not Dutch, nor from any other known origin that I can think of.

The second serie (the marks on the back) seem to be casted at the time the spoon was casted.
The one on the right resembles a known Dutch pseudo mark (no. 131 "Valse Zilvermerken in Nederland" by K.A.Citroen). But not as clear as it should be.
Not all Dutch pseudo marks are documented.

My guess is that this is a copy of an ca. 1900 spoon, recasted in China or somewhere, and then stamped with the marks at the front.
But that is just a wild guess.

Hope that helped.

[peachez]

Thanks so much for your quick reply. What I think you're saying is that this is a fake?:( I am inclined to agree with you, the 'modern' 925 marks seem to suggest it's not as old as it's trying to appear. The only thing is that the reverse of the spoon is very worn especially where the bowl would be resting on something. I'm completely confused now (situation normal) and will go and cry into my beer.

Thanks for your help:)

Regards,

Peachez

[Doos]

Peachez,

Yes I think it's fake.
The fake could be old, could be new, .. I have no clue really.

It clearly has Dutch motives, so maybe it was imported to Amsterdam (or some other place where tourists go) and sold as a souvenir.
Although it's illegal to sell pieces that are not fully hallmarked by an official essay office.

But cheer up, pseudo marks are also collected and studied.

[peachez]

Well I've learned something, if nothing else. Won't be so quick to part with my cash next time:)

[admin]

Hi,

The first series of marks are British import hallmarks. They indicate that it is sterling and was imported into London in 1987 by BML?, can't really make out the sponsor mark.
In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Berthold Muller, based in London, was a large scale importer of silver made in Hanau Germany. Much of it cast and carrying pseudo hallmarks, his sponsor mark was BM. This spoon is of the same ilk and I suspect it was imported by a later incarnation of the firm. The sponsor's mark looks to be BML or BMI, maybe B. Muller Limited or B. Muller Imports. Perhaps one of the British mavens can track it down.

Regards, Tom

[dragonflywink]

The photos are a bit fuzzy, but the town mark on the British import marks looks more like Chester to me, perhaps this is the 1913 Chester "N"? I've handled quite a few pseudo-marked Dutch pieces with British import marks from the late 19th/early 20th century.

Cheryl ;o)

[admin]

Cheryl,
Oops! sloppy of me, thanks for coming to the rescue. You are right, the London import mark was flipped over (from a U to an Omega) in 1975. That is the Chester "acorn & leaves" import mark, so the cursive N would correspond to 1913.

Peachez,
Can you give us a verbal description of the letters in the sponsor mark?

Tom

[Doos]

Ah, that is new to me.

The left mark on the 2nd serie did look like something that looks like an Augsburg Mark (or a pseudo Zwolle).

Guess I learned something aswell.

[peachez]

Hello all:)

I shall try to describe things as best I can. The sponsor mark is contained within a retangular shield. It reads B.M.L. The lettering is 'straight' i.e., not cursive and quite a bold typeface. Similar to a bold Times New Roman. For example the 'L' almost has a 'hat' on the top of it, almost as a capital 'T' would. The next mark is as someone has described, is an acorn and leaves, contained within a small oval shield. Next there is a slightly larger shield containing the 925. Finally there is a square shield (with it's corners cut off, if you see what I mean) with the cursive N.

Having looked in my little book, the N matches the 1913 mark for Chester. However, the shield shape is not the same. I'm still a bit confused. Is the 'standard' Chester mark replaced when it's an import mark, with the acorn and leaves? Also, if this was indeed imported in 1913, when was it made?

I am very grateful for all your thoughts and opinions. Thanks for taking the time:)

Regards,
Peachez

[dragonflywink]

From 1867-1904 silver items imported into Britain simply had an F-in-circle mark added to the regular marks. From 1904 to present, the fineness (.925 on yours) was stamped along with the date mark and the town mark with a symbol differing from the one used on British-made pieces and always in an oval cartouche for silver items; the Chester assay office was closed in 1962. "Dutch Revival" pieces like yours were quite popular from the late 1800s well into the 1920s, would guess that your spoon was made around the same time it was imported into the U.K. The sponsor's mark indicates in this case the company that imported it, rather than the maker (the little additional end-strokes on the lettering are called serifs).

Cheryl ;o)

[Doos]

So we can conclude from this that peachez' spoon was made around the turn of the last century from an old Dutch model and imported to GB in (or before) 1913.
And that the spoon was probably (sand) casted in Germany.

This has been a nice learning curve, but what I have a hard time figuring out is why an English importer would want windmill spoons.

[peachez]

Huge thanks to you all, especially Doos and Cheryl for sorting this out for me. I'm delighted to learn about my sweet little fake:)

Many thanks,

Regards,
Peachez:)

[admin]

Found some interesting info at the library yesterday. While looking for another book, I literally stumbled across "Chester Silver 1837-1962" by Maurice H. Ridgway. The book illustrated maker's marks, but they did not include any version of a BML or BM. However, they did have an entry explaining Muller's connection to Chester assay. Here is the full entry.

Berthold Muller, London
Franz Carl Berthold Muller was first known at Hatton Garden, but by the time he registered his mark at Chester, 10 March 1898, he had moved to 187 Wardour St., Soho and traded as B. Muller & Son. The elder Muller died in Heidelberg in 1911. The firm acted as agent for imported wares from the Hanau works at Neresheimer, Germany, who made fine copies of earlier masters of German origin. Muller also imported wares from W. Lobensteyn, Schoonhoven, Holland and also for James Turner of the Colonnade Buxton, which were imported through Chester.
A wager cup given as a wedding present in 1905 having the grapes mark of Nuremberg and the import mark of Chester (acorn) the .925, the script D (for 1900) and the mark of Berthold Muller.
In an interview with A. Vincent Ward in 1973, the last Assay Master spoke a great deal of silver being sent by train to Chester from London including a large number of figures and he spoke of a dutch figure of a boy and girl in the form of a pepper pot, each figure with detachable heads by Berthold Muller.

Note: Ridgway seems to have transposed - Hanau and Neresheimer- Hanau being the city and Neresheimer being a manufacturer.

Considering the motif of your spoon, perhaps it was made by Lobensteyn of Schoonhoven.
Since the bulk of this thread discusses the English marks, I'm going to move it over to British Silver, hopefully someone there has a reference that'll nail down the BML sponsor mark.
Regards, Tom

[peachez]

Tom, thanks so much for taking the time to post this. It sheds more light on things for me and gives me some good pointers for more info. Wish our library was as good as yours seems to be:)

Many thanks,
Peachez

[Doos]

For completeness, W Lobensteyn worked in Schoonhoven from 1860 till unknown date.
He died in 1918.

His specialities were small boxes and purses.
Besides being a silversmith, he was also a tradesman.

From 1860 till 1875 he used the makers mark WL above 83 in a square.
After that a WL above 89 in square.