It has three markings on the front and 4 stamped marking on the back.
The ones on the back appear, to my eye at least, to be a woman, crown on top of something, a W, and ???
[b- images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements )[/b]
Can anyone ID this silver ladel?
Can anyone ID this silver ladel?
I came across this in my home amidst a number of antiques. I tried googling for awhile but couldn't determine any more information on it. The tag of course says Dublin Gen III 1793 though I don't know if that's a correct ID. It's about 180g in weight and really beautiful.
It has three markings on the front and 4 stamped marking on the back.
The ones on the back appear, to my eye at least, to be a woman, crown on top of something, a W, and ???
[b- images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements )[/b]
It has three markings on the front and 4 stamped marking on the back.
The ones on the back appear, to my eye at least, to be a woman, crown on top of something, a W, and ???
[b- images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements )[/b]
Re: Can anyone ID this silver ladel?
Hi Zackb911,
Welcome to the forum.
The label at the ladle reads; Dublin, 1793 Reign of George III,I believe it to be correct. The W in a shield is the Dublin date letter for 1793
For more information please check;
http://www.925-1000.com/dlDublin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.925-1000.com/dlc_dublin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Other members will be able to tell you far more.
Regards,
Oel
Welcome to the forum.
The label at the ladle reads; Dublin, 1793 Reign of George III,I believe it to be correct. The W in a shield is the Dublin date letter for 1793
For more information please check;
http://www.925-1000.com/dlDublin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.925-1000.com/dlc_dublin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Other members will be able to tell you far more.
Regards,
Oel
-
2209patrick
- co-admin
- Posts: 3549
- Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:53 pm
- Location: Land of Lincoln, USA
Re: Can anyone ID this silver ladel?
Hello.
Agree with Dublin 1793.
We might need a clearer picture of the maker's mark to identify it.
When I enlarged your picture I thought I could see MK.
Maybe Michael Keating?
Fine looking piece.
Pat.
Agree with Dublin 1793.
We might need a clearer picture of the maker's mark to identify it.
When I enlarged your picture I thought I could see MK.
Maybe Michael Keating?
Fine looking piece.
Pat.
Re: Can anyone ID this silver ladel?
Wow thank you so much, it looks just like the 1793 marking. That last stamping to my eyes is very hard to distinguish, all the others are spot on.
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(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )
-
SirWatkynBassett
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:34 am
Re: Can anyone ID this silver ladel?
Hello,
Yes, indeed it is Michael Keating, but no, not 1793.
Attention must be paid to the cartouches when identitying 18th century Irish hallmarks. Had the Crowned Harp been encased in an oval cartouche, then 1793 would have indeed been the answer, but as can be seen, it is struck without outline, thus the date of the assay of this ladel is 1769.
It is one of Keating's early pieces, he was granted the status of Quarter Brother in 1766, enabling him to have his work assayed at Dublin.
The Crowned Harp and the seated Hibernia marks have a large array of small differences during the 18th century, giving valuable clues to dating when no date letter is struck, something that often occurs on Irish silver of this period, with the exception of flatware. Excellent research on these small differences was carried out in the late 1960's by Kurt Ticher, Ida Delamer, and William O'Sullivan. Their work was published in a small booklet by the National Museum of Ireland, if you can find a copy, it is recommended reading.
Bassett
Yes, indeed it is Michael Keating, but no, not 1793.
Attention must be paid to the cartouches when identitying 18th century Irish hallmarks. Had the Crowned Harp been encased in an oval cartouche, then 1793 would have indeed been the answer, but as can be seen, it is struck without outline, thus the date of the assay of this ladel is 1769.
It is one of Keating's early pieces, he was granted the status of Quarter Brother in 1766, enabling him to have his work assayed at Dublin.
The Crowned Harp and the seated Hibernia marks have a large array of small differences during the 18th century, giving valuable clues to dating when no date letter is struck, something that often occurs on Irish silver of this period, with the exception of flatware. Excellent research on these small differences was carried out in the late 1960's by Kurt Ticher, Ida Delamer, and William O'Sullivan. Their work was published in a small booklet by the National Museum of Ireland, if you can find a copy, it is recommended reading.
Bassett
Re: Can anyone ID this silver ladel?
I think you're right, it looks extremely similar to this one:
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(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )
Re: Can anyone ID this silver ladel?
Hi,
Yes Sir Basset is very right in his statement.
I believe it would be a good idea to improve the British & Irish Date Letter Chards shown at our forum and to include in the Chards the correct Sterling Standards Marks, City Marks and Duty Marks in combination with the relevant year letter cycle. I realize this will be only helpful to narrow it down a little better. We always need our books and the opinion of Experts.
I found this on the net;
Irish silver offers some complications in regard to its markings, and it is especially interesting in its character.
Dublin is the centre of the silversmiths’ work in Ireland, and officially the Dublin Goldsmiths’ Company holds the exclusive right of assaying and marking Irish silver ; but, as we shall show, there was excellent silver made elsewhere in Ireland, notably at Cork, and in the section devoted to Irish silver some fine specimens are illustrated.
The Standard Mark is the harp, and was used with the crown added to it, in the year 1637, under the terms of a charter granted by Charles I to the Goldsmiths of Dublin.
In England from 1784 to 1890 the head of the sovereign was added as a mark to denote that duty had been paid. But in Ireland a Duty Mark was in force as early as 1730, viz. the figure of Hibernia. In 1807, in the reign of George III, the duty was raised ; and it was enacted by George Ill that the king’s head should be stamped as a Duty Mark. This was continued till 1890, as in England, but at the same time the old Duty Mark of the figure of Hibernia was retained, and has still been used since 1890. The figure of Hibernia may be practically regarded as a Hall Mark, although it was first adopted to denote that duty had been paid.
The Maker’s Mark, in the early days a device, and later initials, follows the practice of assay offices in England. The date letter was used from the middle, of the seventeenth century. The present series of letters from 1896 to 1920 covers the alphabet from A to Z (omitting J) in old English capitals.
Dublin. 1770. In these marks, drawn from a cream-pail, the figure of Hibernia appears. It will be noted that this is prior to the addition of a Duty Mark in England (in 1784), and prior to the further addition of a second Duty Mark in Ireland (in 1807), when the head of George III denoted that duty had been paid. The Maker of this piece was Will Haynes. The date is about 1770, but undecipherable.
For the full story see;
http://antique-trails.com/2009/hall-mar ... all-marks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
Oel
Yes Sir Basset is very right in his statement.
I believe it would be a good idea to improve the British & Irish Date Letter Chards shown at our forum and to include in the Chards the correct Sterling Standards Marks, City Marks and Duty Marks in combination with the relevant year letter cycle. I realize this will be only helpful to narrow it down a little better. We always need our books and the opinion of Experts.
I found this on the net;
Irish silver offers some complications in regard to its markings, and it is especially interesting in its character.
Dublin is the centre of the silversmiths’ work in Ireland, and officially the Dublin Goldsmiths’ Company holds the exclusive right of assaying and marking Irish silver ; but, as we shall show, there was excellent silver made elsewhere in Ireland, notably at Cork, and in the section devoted to Irish silver some fine specimens are illustrated.
The Standard Mark is the harp, and was used with the crown added to it, in the year 1637, under the terms of a charter granted by Charles I to the Goldsmiths of Dublin.
In England from 1784 to 1890 the head of the sovereign was added as a mark to denote that duty had been paid. But in Ireland a Duty Mark was in force as early as 1730, viz. the figure of Hibernia. In 1807, in the reign of George III, the duty was raised ; and it was enacted by George Ill that the king’s head should be stamped as a Duty Mark. This was continued till 1890, as in England, but at the same time the old Duty Mark of the figure of Hibernia was retained, and has still been used since 1890. The figure of Hibernia may be practically regarded as a Hall Mark, although it was first adopted to denote that duty had been paid.
The Maker’s Mark, in the early days a device, and later initials, follows the practice of assay offices in England. The date letter was used from the middle, of the seventeenth century. The present series of letters from 1896 to 1920 covers the alphabet from A to Z (omitting J) in old English capitals.
Dublin. 1770. In these marks, drawn from a cream-pail, the figure of Hibernia appears. It will be noted that this is prior to the addition of a Duty Mark in England (in 1784), and prior to the further addition of a second Duty Mark in Ireland (in 1807), when the head of George III denoted that duty had been paid. The Maker of this piece was Will Haynes. The date is about 1770, but undecipherable.
For the full story see;
http://antique-trails.com/2009/hall-mar ... all-marks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
Oel
Re: Can anyone ID this silver ladel?
Hi,
The reproduction of an accurate table of Irish 18th century marks would be a great addition, I agree, but in reality not possible, at least at the moment.
The work of the Ticher, Delamer, O'Sullivan, partnership indentified a total of 38 different Hibernia's, and 24 different Crowned Harp's. When applied in combination with each other, then those figures increase dramatically. Also it must be remembered that their work is subject to copyright and will be for many years to come. The copyright as I understand it is held by the National Museum of Ireland.
The great advantage of this forum is that our members are willing to share their knowledge and resources, so hopefully, any queries or questions regarding the complications of Irish hallmarking will eventully be answered, and from every question asked, we all learn a little more.
Trev.
The reproduction of an accurate table of Irish 18th century marks would be a great addition, I agree, but in reality not possible, at least at the moment.
The work of the Ticher, Delamer, O'Sullivan, partnership indentified a total of 38 different Hibernia's, and 24 different Crowned Harp's. When applied in combination with each other, then those figures increase dramatically. Also it must be remembered that their work is subject to copyright and will be for many years to come. The copyright as I understand it is held by the National Museum of Ireland.
The great advantage of this forum is that our members are willing to share their knowledge and resources, so hopefully, any queries or questions regarding the complications of Irish hallmarking will eventully be answered, and from every question asked, we all learn a little more.
Trev.
Re: Can anyone ID this silver ladel?
If only we could put together a set of marks photos - we probably couldn't amass a complete set, but even a partial set could prove useful. On the other hand, maybe an artistic member could draw their own version of a complete set and post it - lol.