Important Russian Silver? Grand Duke Crown & Imperial Eagle

[Tipton444]

Hello all,

I recently came across a grouping of very interesting silver, which included this impressive Russian silver condiment dish, and I'm wondering if anyone can help me identify it. After doing very basic research, I found some similar pieces with the same crown and double eagle symbols, and they attributed it to being from the Grand Duke Michael Nicolaevich Romanov. Then, I saw another set of plates (also with the crown and double eagle) that said it was for Alexander Nikolaevich service, later Tsar Alexander II (1818-1881) with a monogram of the initials AN. Now my condiment dish, if that's what it is called, does not have a monogram with the letters AN, so I'm guessing its not a part of Alexander Nikolaevich's service, but can anyone help me identify which service it may have been from? The dish is is incredibly well made, and very heavy for its size (144g). The hallmarks are on the inside, and I would love if someone could help me identify the maker.

I acquired this piece of Russian silver in a lot which included even more important pieces. It came with 5 pieces of an 1806 service set made for Prince William I, Elector of Hesse-Kassel, with one serving spoon made by Heinrich Wilhelm Kompff. I have no idea why these pieces would be together with the Russian silver, unless someone was collecting important pieces, but if anyone knows any relation please share! I have made a new post on this forum regarding the William I pieces, so be sure to check that out as well!

Thank you all very much for your time!
-Eric









In case the pictures don't work, here are the links:
https://ibb.co/RYfPrWD
https://ibb.co/CKQxgQd
https://ibb.co/DrXs427
https://ibb.co/Hx6dX4T
https://ibb.co/XDqdL13
https://ibb.co/sHvsDS0

[dognose]

Hi,

Please embed your images.

https://postimages.org (choose 'Share', then copy the 'Hotlink for forums' code) is recommended. Do not use Photobucket or Dropbox.

Trev.

[Tipton444]

Sorry, wrong format, here are the pictures:

[Qrt.S]

It is hardly a condiment dish. Such a dish is usually bigger.

Two questions if you don't mind:
1. What is the punch far right suppose to show? (in a round shield)
2. What is the first letter in the rectangular shield suppose to show (? Г·Г·)? It is hardly a Latin capital I, or?

The first mark to the left is "presumably" the assayer's punch, (looks like Д·Т)? Kindly clarify and we shall see...
For the moment dubious punches in my mind.
Finding an object on the market from the imperial Russian court is close to impossible in these days.

[Mart]

Hello! There is a stamp "IFF" Johann Fredrik Falk, St. Petersburg, according to the book PL.

[Qrt.S]

OK, nice doing Mart,
Found Johan Falck, but is it him for sure? Anyway, if so he was born in Sveaborg 1799 (it is a fortress on an island outside Helsinki) He came to St. Petersburg as an apprentice 1819, master 1838. Worked for Nicols & Plinke. He died 2.3.1845. Johan was married to Dorotea Claes from Pernau 1824. His second wife from 1844 was Rosina Agneta Graf born in Reval (Tallinn). Some objects made by him are found in St. Petersburg/Vinter Palace.

The main question is still, is it him?.... IF it is, then the punch in the round shield could be St. Petersburg's town crest....maybe. It had a "round" shield in those days with a year. Cannot see any year is this "smudge".

[Mart]

Thanks for the info! Of course, this is St. Petersburg. I have not studied the activities of this silversmith in detail. The IFF stamps were found in the 1840s, but also after 1845. This is not very consistent with the above date of Falk’s death (1845).

[Qrt.S]

@Mart
Your are welcome. However, nothing is carved in stone regarding silver marks. It is not an absolute science! This has been stated here many times in the past. There are misunderstandings and faults in every book I have come across.
I read the maker's mark being I Г·Г· . You read it IFF. You are most likely right, but I also wrote that is it the mentioned master's punch? I only wrote what I found in my sources, no guarantees were given. I still have difficulties of seeing any tracks of the year in the badly punched St. Petersburg's town punch but there are some St.P punches without a year in it, so could be...?
BTW the more or less same years are mentioned in Ivanov #4294, so...?

In addition, it is still a bit odd that the punches are inside. Usually they are in the bottom outside on an object like this, but again, but...?
Please note that the punch in PL#1708 has no centralized dots!!!

Interesting case after all.

[Juke*]

Hi!

It is a typical salt cellar with a handle so you could pass it around. The style and size is typical for the mid 19th century. The quality is very high and as you stated heavy which adds up that it is a quality object.

The salt cellar is worn by the use of the small salt spoon and salt as an acid has made the corrosion on the salt cellar itself and the marks.

The engraving looks to be quite worn, anyway I read it to be 'AN' so I believe it well could be from Alexander Nikolaevich service. All indicates to me that it is a genuine object (marks, style, quality, weight). Thereby I think you have hit the jackpot!

You should check the service you saw if it is of similar style. To add it is good to remember that as an emperor he had a few sets in different palaces so could be well from one of the other palaces than the one you saw earlier.



Regards,
Juke

[Aguest]

:::: Does this salt cellar really have a handle? It looks more like a partition to divide the 2 halves of the salt compartment. I don't see a traditional "handle" on this piece? Am I completely wrong? :::::::

[Juke*]

:::: Does this salt cellar really have a handle? It looks more like a partition to divide the 2 halves of the salt compartment. I don't see a traditional "handle" on this piece? Am I completely wrong? :::::::

You are correct, from one of the pictures you can just see that it consists of two compartments so then for salt and pepper. It is a more rare piece in that sense that typically these had only one compartment just for salt.

[Qrt.S]

Due to the recent accessing problems in 925 I took a closer look at Johan Fredrik Falck or Falk using different sources. To my surprise I found the following:
In my previous message I wrote that Johan Fredrik Falck was married to Rosina Agneta Graf born in Reval (EE). Actually Rosina was married 18.2.1844 to another master in St.P, i.e. Carl Georg Samuel Falck, born 1.2.1818 in St. Simonis. A county in Wierland in EE. He died 24.11.1894.

Carl Georg Falck was a journeyman in St. Peterburg and appointed master 1845-1894. He had his workshop in Дом Погребова on Пазъежаяд ул. in СТП 1849 (?). (Not sure, Ivanov claims #4296 that this workshop belonged to Carl Andrevich Falk. 1849-1867 ??? Unfortunately I don’t know Carl Georg’s punch. (Is it even known?) Anyway, this might explain Mart’s claim that he has seen punches (outlook?) with dates after Johan Fredrik’s death.

Are Carl Johan and Johan Fredrik related I don’t either know (hardly).

Another thing I didn’t find was Fredrik’s date (dd.mm.yy) of birth. The year 1799 is only ”anticipated” and that the birthplace would have been ”Sveaborg” in Finland. Actually a short investigation showed that he only came from Sveaborg. There is no documentation found supporting that he would have been born there, so again? I'm more and more puzzled??? (BTW, there were many masters named Falk in StP.

Additional comments and further clarifications are appreciated.

[Mart]

If a person passed the exam and became a silversmith, this does not mean that he had his own business and mark. So far I do not know for sure who was the owner of the IFF mark. Maybe it was I.F. Falk, but only “possibly”.

[Qrt.S]

Correct Mart, there are masters that haven't made anything or no objects have been found or are known. A very well known person/master i.e. Carl Fabergé hasn't made anything, at least there is not a single object known/found, so...

Note!
It is commonly "accepted" that an object is dated according to the year in the assayer's punch. BUT! that doesn't necessarily mean that it is made that year. It is only assayed then. It could have been made earlier (so what?). That would explain why Mart's example shows 1847, but Johan Fredrik died 1845. This fact also leads to to tree alternatives, either it was made earlier by Johan Fredrik or later made by Carl Georg who died 1894, or made by this "ghost" Carl Andrevich who died 1867, Who knows ????
Moreover, silver marks are not an absolute science, only a "hobby", but it is still fascinating to look into it. I think this is about all regarding this interesting case. Who is the actual maker will be shrouded in obscurity....as for now :-)))

[Mart]

I do not have documents about the birth, work and death of Johann Falk. I do not know when he really died.
Today I met another Moscow master who had an absolute namesake. This was a problem for attribution.
The IFF brand is indeed found next to the brand "Nichols and Plinke". There may be documents, but I wasn't interested in them.
I can't understand why you're talking about Karl Falk. Yes, there is information about him. It is about a silversmith, but more often as a goldsmith. His initials are not suitable for IFF.
If someone wanted to put the stamps in the assay office a few years after the master died, then they would get problems because they were not registered that year.

[Qrt.S]

??? what Karl Falk ?

[Qrt.S]

Johan (with only one n) Fredrik Falk's birth date is unclear. But he died (of stroke) 2.3.1845 (Julian calendar, Gregorian calendar in 14.3.) in St. Petersburg. He is noted as a silver worker. He is buried in Wolkova 5.3 (Greg. 17.3). It is documented in the church book of St. Katarina church congregation in StP! It is investigated and a fact. Take a look if you have some doubts!

[/quote]

If someone wanted to put the stamps in the assay office a few years after the master died, then they would get problems because they were not registered that year.

OK, when the punch's year is 1847, the maker cannot be Johan Fredrik because he is dead.

[Mart]

You have previously written about Karl Georg Falk:
"...This fact also leads to to tree alternatives, either it was made earlier by Johan Fredrik or later made by Carl Georg who died 1894, or made by this "ghost" Carl Andrevich who died 1867, Who knows ????..."

[Qrt.S]

No I haven't. I wrote about Carl Georg Samuel Frank and that is not quite the same as Karl Frank (there is no Karl Frank). The reason for that was that his mark is not known and could be anything (or nothing)! The other reason was that he was married to Rosina. There are too many Falks and books contain partly misleading info as well as mix the persons

[Qrt.S]

Sorry FALCK not Frank.