Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
I own a Dutch silver Torah pointer from the 18th or early 19th centuries. I'd greatly appreciate help identifying the hallmark. The S appears like the S listed on the site as the Dutch hallmark from 1816, but I'm not sure what the intertwined C indicates.
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Hi,
Welcome to the Forum.
You are showing no hallmarks, only the engraved initials of a former owner of the piece.
Trev.
Welcome to the Forum.
You are showing no hallmarks, only the engraved initials of a former owner of the piece.
Trev.
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
I guess I confused those letters with hallmarks. Is there anyway to approximate a date for the piece based on the style of the letters?
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Perhaps this is the hallmark I'm looking for?
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Hi, what makes you think the pointer is Dutch made?
For Dutch hallmarks and information see;
viewtopic.php?t=32028
Best to clean the pointer and check for proper marks.
Peter.
.
For Dutch hallmarks and information see;
viewtopic.php?t=32028
Best to clean the pointer and check for proper marks.
Peter.
.
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
The style of the pointer is Dutch. I'll clean the pointer as you suggest.
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Here's what I hope is a clearer picture of the hallmark. It looks to me like the dolphin/fish mark that was used in Holland from 1859-1893 (K in the picture below)
I'd greatly appreciate any help in identifying the mark so that I have a better sense of the dating of the piece.
Thanks in advance!
Ari
I'd greatly appreciate any help in identifying the mark so that I have a better sense of the dating of the piece.
Thanks in advance!
Ari
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Hi Ari, you cleaned the pointer well.
Indeed, you are right, the Dutch dolphin mark. Here the dolphin is missing part of its snout's lower jaw.
The Dolphin mark.
The Dutch dolphin mark; the 1859 duty mark for new unguaranteed objects of national origin. This mark was used on all new silver objects below legal standard of fineness, those with non-precious metal additions, and on new heavily gold or silver plated objects, as long as the average precious metal content after melting with the base metal was at least 250/1000. It was also struck on rejected objects which had been submitted at lowest standard of fineness. In that case the maker had to choose between destruction or unguaranteed marking. This mark was sometimes also mistakenly used on old and foreign objects. Dolphin mark used from 1859-1893 and valid from 1859 till 1953.
Peter.
Indeed, you are right, the Dutch dolphin mark. Here the dolphin is missing part of its snout's lower jaw.
The Dolphin mark.
The Dutch dolphin mark; the 1859 duty mark for new unguaranteed objects of national origin. This mark was used on all new silver objects below legal standard of fineness, those with non-precious metal additions, and on new heavily gold or silver plated objects, as long as the average precious metal content after melting with the base metal was at least 250/1000. It was also struck on rejected objects which had been submitted at lowest standard of fineness. In that case the maker had to choose between destruction or unguaranteed marking. This mark was sometimes also mistakenly used on old and foreign objects. Dolphin mark used from 1859-1893 and valid from 1859 till 1953.
Peter.
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Thanks. Is it possible that the marking below on the pointer is not the initials of the owner but rather of the maker or someone in the assayer's office?
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Not a hallmark nor a maker's mark. Just two engraved initials tprobably of an owner who had it personalised.
Peter.
Peter.
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
By the way, I believe that the style of the yad does not necessarily makes it Dutch.
I'm going for the German-speaking region. Silver content around 800/000, below the Dutch legal minimum content of 833/000 (1814-1953). A XRF analysis device can provide the answer.
Peter
Source; Crowning Glory Silver Torah Ornaments of the Jewish museum, New York, by Rafi Grafman
I'm going for the German-speaking region. Silver content around 800/000, below the Dutch legal minimum content of 833/000 (1814-1953). A XRF analysis device can provide the answer.
Peter
Source; Crowning Glory Silver Torah Ornaments of the Jewish museum, New York, by Rafi Grafman
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Very interesting. If the pointer were German in origin, why would it have the Dutch dolphin hallmark? And why do you think that the silver content is below 833?
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
The dolphin mark.
The Dutch dolphin mark; the 1859 duty mark for new unguaranteed objects of national origin. Below seen in combination with the Dutch maker's mark/responsibility mark, AL under arrow for J.A. Leurs (Sittard 1843-1886)
.
The yad lacks a Dutch maker's mark, duty mark only.
Dolphin mark was used on all new silver objects below legal standard of fineness, It was also struck on rejected objects which had been submitted at lowest standard of fineness (833/000). In that case the maker had to choose between destruction or unguaranteed marking. Again you would expect to find a Dutch maker's mark.
The dolphin mark was sometimes also mistakenly used on old and foreign objects.
Dolphin mark used from 1859-1893 and valid from 1859 till 1953.
Peter.
Source; Waarborgholland, ˜Netherlands' Responsibility Marks since 1797
The Dutch dolphin mark; the 1859 duty mark for new unguaranteed objects of national origin. Below seen in combination with the Dutch maker's mark/responsibility mark, AL under arrow for J.A. Leurs (Sittard 1843-1886)
. The yad lacks a Dutch maker's mark, duty mark only.
Dolphin mark was used on all new silver objects below legal standard of fineness, It was also struck on rejected objects which had been submitted at lowest standard of fineness (833/000). In that case the maker had to choose between destruction or unguaranteed marking. Again you would expect to find a Dutch maker's mark.
The dolphin mark was sometimes also mistakenly used on old and foreign objects.
Dolphin mark used from 1859-1893 and valid from 1859 till 1953.
Peter.
Source; Waarborgholland, ˜Netherlands' Responsibility Marks since 1797
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Thanks for this further clarification. I want to make sure I understand: it's clearly below 833/000 because of the dolphin mark, but isn't it possible that a Dutch maker would not have attached his maker's mark to this inferior piece of silver? Put differently, does every antique Dutch silver piece have to feature a maker's mark?
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Your yad, Dutch duty mark only and without a Dutch maker's mark, judging by style, we might say probably Dutch or continental or? No more than that.
Dutch maker's marks were officially registered at assay offices and punched in a copper insculpation plate with their names engraved next to it for verification.
viewtopic.php?p=80323#p80323
viewtopic.php?t=63769
The first thing a silversmith was supposed to do, to punch his maker's mark/responsibility mark on the item he was making or made. Did that always happen, no of course not.
Below is an example of the maker's mark only.
viewtopic.php?t=63666
As always The Authorities need money. By law, duty marks for silver and gold were introduced and had to be enforced. A Duty mark showed that tax had been paid on the silver item. Which could now be legally sold at public places.
Bear with me, little historic survey.
The new Dutch hallmarking law of September 1852.
The most important changes are;- admission of new Netherlands objects of non guaranteed standard of fineness, with a minimum of 250/000. This also concerns objects of mixed composition and heavily gold or silver plated objects. Plated objects are duty marked as far as the average content after melting results in 250/000 minimum.
.1) re-institution of the obligation of Solicitors, Process Servers, Registrars and other public officials to submit gold and silver objects in public auctions to the Assay Service, and to have the unmarked ones marked and taxed.
.2) new duty mark is established, the 'S' mark for new objects of unguaranteed standard of fineness, used (1853-1859)
In the amended hallmarking law of May 1859
Upon complaints, that the 'S' mark of 1853 in public parlance stands for 'Slecht'(=Bad) and the request to abolish unguaranteed duty marking completely, this 'S' mark is by Order in Council replaced by the 'dolphin' mark in cut out line. The request to abolish duty marking of objects below the legal standard of fineness, is denied.
Your yad, what may have happened? Sometime between 1859-1893 the unmarked yad was offered under .1) to be marked and taxed.
Certainly it could be a (very) old yad but also a not so old one. Where and by whom was the yad made? Who knows, may say.
The dolphin mark was sometimes also mistakenly used on old and foreign objects.The dolphin mark here seen in combination with hallmarks of the guild periodhttps://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61046
Peter.
Source; WaarborgHolland, Gouda Netherlands Responsibility marks from 1797
Dutch maker's marks were officially registered at assay offices and punched in a copper insculpation plate with their names engraved next to it for verification.
viewtopic.php?p=80323#p80323
viewtopic.php?t=63769
The first thing a silversmith was supposed to do, to punch his maker's mark/responsibility mark on the item he was making or made. Did that always happen, no of course not.
Below is an example of the maker's mark only.
viewtopic.php?t=63666
As always The Authorities need money. By law, duty marks for silver and gold were introduced and had to be enforced. A Duty mark showed that tax had been paid on the silver item. Which could now be legally sold at public places.
Bear with me, little historic survey.
The new Dutch hallmarking law of September 1852.
The most important changes are;- admission of new Netherlands objects of non guaranteed standard of fineness, with a minimum of 250/000. This also concerns objects of mixed composition and heavily gold or silver plated objects. Plated objects are duty marked as far as the average content after melting results in 250/000 minimum.
.1) re-institution of the obligation of Solicitors, Process Servers, Registrars and other public officials to submit gold and silver objects in public auctions to the Assay Service, and to have the unmarked ones marked and taxed.
.2) new duty mark is established, the 'S' mark for new objects of unguaranteed standard of fineness, used (1853-1859)
In the amended hallmarking law of May 1859
Upon complaints, that the 'S' mark of 1853 in public parlance stands for 'Slecht'(=Bad) and the request to abolish unguaranteed duty marking completely, this 'S' mark is by Order in Council replaced by the 'dolphin' mark in cut out line. The request to abolish duty marking of objects below the legal standard of fineness, is denied.
Your yad, what may have happened? Sometime between 1859-1893 the unmarked yad was offered under .1) to be marked and taxed.
Certainly it could be a (very) old yad but also a not so old one. Where and by whom was the yad made? Who knows, may say.
The dolphin mark was sometimes also mistakenly used on old and foreign objects.The dolphin mark here seen in combination with hallmarks of the guild periodhttps://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61046
Peter.
Source; WaarborgHolland, Gouda Netherlands Responsibility marks from 1797
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
Ok-- so before 1853, pieces of silver below the 833/000 threshold were not marked. In the case of my yad, all we can say for sure is that it was marked sometime between 1859-1893. Assuming that what I've written thus far is correct, I think I have one final question-- if it had been made before 1859, why would it have received a dolphin mark-- did the authorities then require that all silver below the 833 threshold be brought for marking?
Re: Unknown maker and date on silver Torah pointer
The yad could have been made before 1859 but also sometime between 1859 and 1893. The yad was unmarked. The silver content is unknown, when and where the yad was made, and why it was unmarked is unknown.
At some point between 1859 and 1893, the yad was offered for re-sale at an auction house/public sales place. Before the yad could be auctioned, by law, it had to first be presented for inspection at an assay office. Since the yad was unmarked, the yad had to be marked and tax had to be paid. After this, the yad was stamped with the dolphin duty mark.
The new Dutch hallmarking law of September 1852. Re-institution of the obligation of Solicitors, Process Servers, Registrars and other public officials to submit gold and silver objects in public auctions to the Assay Service, and to have the unmarked ones marked and taxed.
The Dutch dolphin mark; the 1859 duty mark for new unguaranteed objects of national origin. This mark was used on all new silver objects below legal standard of fineness, those with non-precious metal additions, and on new heavily gold or silver plated objects, as long as the average precious metal content after melting with the base metal was at least 250/1000. It was also struck on rejected objects which had been submitted at lowest standard of fineness. In that case the maker had to choose between destruction or unguaranteed marking. This mark was sometimes also mistakenly used on old and foreign objects. Dolphin mark used from 1859-1893 and valid from 1859 till 1953.
Peter.
At some point between 1859 and 1893, the yad was offered for re-sale at an auction house/public sales place. Before the yad could be auctioned, by law, it had to first be presented for inspection at an assay office. Since the yad was unmarked, the yad had to be marked and tax had to be paid. After this, the yad was stamped with the dolphin duty mark.
The new Dutch hallmarking law of September 1852. Re-institution of the obligation of Solicitors, Process Servers, Registrars and other public officials to submit gold and silver objects in public auctions to the Assay Service, and to have the unmarked ones marked and taxed.
The Dutch dolphin mark; the 1859 duty mark for new unguaranteed objects of national origin. This mark was used on all new silver objects below legal standard of fineness, those with non-precious metal additions, and on new heavily gold or silver plated objects, as long as the average precious metal content after melting with the base metal was at least 250/1000. It was also struck on rejected objects which had been submitted at lowest standard of fineness. In that case the maker had to choose between destruction or unguaranteed marking. This mark was sometimes also mistakenly used on old and foreign objects. Dolphin mark used from 1859-1893 and valid from 1859 till 1953.
Peter.