Justin Vulliamy Pkt Watch - please help id hallmarks

WatchFanZac · Post by **WatchFanZac** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:08 am

Dear All,

I am a new member here. I am respectfully asking for help confirming what I think I have learned from the 925-1000 Online Encyclopaedia of Hallmarks. I have the bellow Justin Vulliamy Pocket Watch (a family heirloom).

On the inside of the case it bears hallmarks which I have interpreted as the following:

Standard Mark: .925 Sterling, City Mark: London and Date Mark: 1786.

I am most unsure about the Date Mark as on in the Encyclopaedia the L series for 1786 does not have a rounded base to the shield as shown on mine. Is there something I am missing about this mark?

Are these interpetations correct (please remmber I'm new at this)?

The same Hallmarks appear on the inside of the case behind the movement:

Any help you can offer pointing me in the right direction would be appreciated. Also I can not find the Maker's Mark in the Encyclopaedia. If anyone recognises this "HG" mark please let me know.

Regards,

Zac

Post by **dognose** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:11 am

Hi Zac,
Your watch was I believe assayed in London in 1826, this is how I came to my conclusion, watchcases were exempt from having a duty mark stamped on them as from 1798, thus discounting the very similar mark for 1786. The shield around the date mark is often found in this shape on smaller articles in this period, also if it were 1786 the Leopards Head would be crowned.
Horace Gooch was a watchcase maker who registered an HG mark in an oblong punch in 1822, his workshops were at 23, Coppice Row, Clerkenwell, London, so this fits in perfectly.
Hope this helps,
Regards Trev.

Post by **dognose** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:03 am

I looked up Justin Vulliamy to find his working period and it appears that he worked from 1730-1790, he came from Switzland and worked in London and was a maker of very fine watches, indeed, he became the Royal Watch Maker, so if I'm right about the date of this watchcase his firm must have carried on working after his death or this, is for sone reason,is a replacement case,
Trev.

Post by **2209patrick** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:35 am

Agree with Trev, that mark was used by Horace Gooch.

Regards,
Pat.

georgiansilver · Post by **georgiansilver** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:18 pm

With respect, you may need to research further as the sovereigns head was used on the London mark from 1784-5 until 1890. Therefore your watch case can only have been made after that date. It was actually made in 1906-7.
Please tell me what makes you think it is a Justin Vulliamy watch as the style and appearance of the face would also appear to be late 19th---early 20th century..
Best wishes, Mike

Post by **dognose** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:54 pm

Hi Mike,
Watchcases I believe were exempted from duty but not from liability to be assayed (38 Geo111.c.24),also the shield around the Leopards Head is quite different on the 1906 hallmark.
I enjoy this kind of debate, its what a forum should all be about,
Regards Trev.

WatchFanZac · Post by **WatchFanZac** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:16 am

Wow ... guys I am overwhelmed by your depth of knoweldge and assistance. Trev, Pat and Mike thanks very much. As I am so new to this I am still strugling to keep up. Is the absence of a crown on the Leopards head significant? Mike by sovereigns head do you mean a picture of the King or Queen of the time, or is that a technical term for a type of mark?

Mike, in answer to your question the movement is signed "Justin Vulliamy VXC LONDON" as the pic below will clarify:

I am intriegued by Trevs sugestion of a replacement case for an older movement. That might explain the research I had done (also confirmed by Trev) that Vulliamy was working around 1730 - 1790. I have heard that he also had sons named Doulas and Justin who may have continued his work after his death, howevery the posibility of someone taking an older movment and placing it into an 1826 case made by Horace Gooch.

Any further info you can dig up about Vulliamy or Gooch would be greatly appreciated.

Anyway gents, thanks agian for your assistance. I am off to post these photos on a Pocket Watch forum and will be sure to let you know if I get any more answers about this watch.

Regards,

Zac

Post by **dognose** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:20 am

Hi Zac,
Between 1478 and 1821 the London mark was a Leopards Head surmounted with a Crown, in 1821 the Crown was deleted leaving just the Leopards Head which is in use to this day.
I am unsure why the crown was removed, I have heard suggestions varying from confusion with the Sheffield mark or that George IV disliked the fact that the Leopard was crowned whilst he appeared on the Duty Mark uncrowned,
Regards Trev.

georgiansilver · Post by **georgiansilver** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:32 pm

Brilliant....definitely a Vulliamy movement so the case is to some extent irrelevant anyway. You need to get the movement appraised by the experts at Sothebys or Christies.
Best wishes, Mike.