HELP with 2 weird silver Marks.... Foreign?

scook · Post by **scook** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:20 pm

Here they are... anyone seen these? I have had them kicking around for a few years..... Thanks in advance --- Steve

Posting Requirements

Hose_dk · Post by **Hose_dk** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:06 pm

I am not sure but the flower looks like Tronheim Norway to me.

Bahner · Post by **Bahner** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:54 am

Hello, I agree with Hose_dk. The marks are, starting from the left: sign of the zodiac for June /July (these marks were used in Norway between 1766 and 1820); , silver fineness (13 and a half lot, equals 843,75/ 1000 fine); "KM" is most likely the assayer's mark; follows what would be the maker's mark - sorry, no clue; finally the city mark of Trondheim. I would date this around 1810, give or take a decade. Best wishes, Bahner

Hose_dk · Post by **Hose_dk** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:52 pm

Hello Bahner I dont fully agree with you.
My Norwegian book do not cover Trondheim - that city is in volume 2 and I dont think that it is published yet.

The mark of June 22nd until July 22nd is 69 turned 45 degrees.
I was thinking of the mark of the Lion July 23rd until August 23rd - but it's not real right.

I also think that KM is the maker. The assayers mark is more likely to be the other one.

These marks represent Christiania (Oslo) left page is guardeins marks (assayers mark) 1719-1741 left top and 1867-1880 bottom right.

Right page is month marks March/April top left to February/March right bottom.

Most likely the Trondheim marks follow the Christiania marks - and Christiania marks followed the principle from Denmark/Copenhagen.

Regarding date I fully agree with you.

Hose_dk · Post by **Hose_dk** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:58 pm

One problem is 53 in the mark - that should represent 1753 or most likely 1853. And 1853 is not realy likely for this spoon - So i am a bit confused.

scook · Post by **scook** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:46 pm

I am looking at the city mark (flower) is the second flower from the 1st flower 1744 in Tardys - so the M 53 would seem to stand to reason this would be 1753?????? The KM is the assayers mark but I do not know who???? the weird looking 6 is confusing maybe instead of 69 would they just use a 6 for the exact month?

Post by **admin** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:56 pm

Although Tardy does indicate that the zodiacal month symbols were only used between 1766 and 1820, it seems they carried on their use to a later date. If you scan through Fossberg's "Norske Solvstemplar" (which, unfortunately, does not include Trondheim) you can spot a number of examples of later use of the zodiac marks. The latest I noticed was 1843 in Oslo, perhaps they continued the use of them in Trondheim to an even later date. The spoon form seems far more likely to date to 1853 than the 18th century.

Regards, Tom

ps. Fairly sure the symbol is a stylized version of the sign for cancer the crab, another version, though in a different context, can be seen here -> alchemical symbols

Hose_dk · Post by **Hose_dk** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:10 pm

No to sixt month. I dont think so. The names of the monthmark is corresponding to the astrologi (is that the english word?) Twins, Toros, Scorpion, Aquarius, Bull, Lion etc and not related to a specific month.

So June is actualy Twins (look like #) and Krepsen (dont know the english name for that one) 69 - it depends wether its before 21st or after 21st.

It could however be a poor version of the 69 mark. I have a spoon from Christiania where guardein mark says 1767 and the maker says 1776. The maker was not active in 67 so he must be correct and the guardein used a "misspelled" mark.

scook · Post by **scook** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:23 pm

the photo I posted is very decieving because it actually looks more like AEther or Retorta in the Alchemical Symbols .....

Post by **admin** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:23 pm

just so everyone can see what we are talking about, here are the zodiacal symbols as used on Christiana/Oslo silver. Not the same, but, no doubt, similar to what would have been used on Trondheim silver.

Click to enlarge the image