1846 Stand w hanging dish over heat source(?)

[dezeman]

This item is not mine, I have permission of the owner to share these pictures.

I am a complete noob on silver hallmarks but I did some digging around on the internet and here is what I have come up with so far. I posted this elsewhere for the person who owns the item:

The 'assayer's mark' has the initials of the assay master, with the year below. The assay master was Hermann Georg Clemens, initials ‘Г.К’. (Cyrillic script). The 'silver standard mark' is in this case the number '84', for a fineness of 84 zolotniki (87.5% pure silver).

The makers mark appears to be from 'Georg Wilhelm Wulff' and the item was made in Tallinn (Estonia now, Russia at the time) in 1846. The town mark is the Tallinn coat of arms, 3 lions in a shield.

The sources that I used:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=35272&p=91992&hilit=GW#p91992

https://www.925-1000.com/Frussia.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co ... allinn.svg

https://register.muinas.ee/public.php?m ... w&id=28302

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

I am looking for some validation on what I pieced together as I never heard of silver hallmarks until 2 days ago.

I am looking for information on the extra hallmark, the one on the far right in picture 3. Why is it there? What does it say?

I am also trying to find out: what is this thing? What is it used for, and how? Some suggested it was possibly health or medical related because of the Rod Of Asclepius. Some say 'potpourri heather'. But I am looking for something conclusive.


I hope you can help me out.

[Aguest]

:::: The mark on the far right might be the mark of a local assay master. :::: Sazikov2000 writes on another obsolete forum:

::::: "You find many exeptions for the years 1842 -1884. For instance: silver made by silversmiths from Werro or Dorpat bear normally the assay office mark from Pleskau and the mark of the local assay master." ::::::

::::: So the mark on the far left would be the mark of the official assay master for that region (with date mark), but you also have the mark of the local assay master on the far right. That's my best guess for what that mark is. There are others with far more Estonian knowledge so perhaps they will chime in and give you more information. :::::

[AG2012]

Incense burner makes sense.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

I'm a bit confused here.
You see when I look at the marks on the third picture, I see also what is already mentioned but I see a bit more
The last mark to the right is the maker's mark, but absolutely not a second assayer's mark. It looks like "HD" but I'm not sure about that. Anyway, no idea who it might be because I cannot find any "HD" maker in Tallinn at all. However, all Estonian makers are not necessarily identified yet. He could be an unknown maker...

What is unclear to me is where is the GW mark that looks like another maker's mark, but??? GW could be Gustav Wulff, but ???

Kindly clean and polish the marks. It could reveal more, thank you in advance.

[oel]

Perhaps GW is a retailer's mark? Maker's mark AD or RD?


Peter

[Mart]

/

[Qrt.S]

??? My question is: Where is the GW mark and what are the letters on the third photo right of Tallinn's town mark (?D) All in all the marks on the third photo are OK except for the unclear mark far to the right.
THe photos shown by Mark do not help at all. They are from another object.

[Aguest]

:::: The GW in the photos shown by Mart are very similar to the GW on the hanging burner so they do add certainty to the GW as being the makers mark. :::: I'm still trying to understand why the mark on the right has absolutely no chance of being a local assay master, there's just no chance whatsoever? ::

[oel]

Let us wait for Dezeman to answer Qrt.S questions; position of the GW mark, and clear image of cleaned (maker's) mark right of Tallinn town mark.


Peter

[Qrt.S]

:::: I'm still trying to understand why the mark on the right has absolutely no chance of being a local assay master, there's just no chance whatsoever? ::

The answer to you question is already given; he is seen in the assay mark to the left (ГК), but once again: He is Herman Georg Klemens and has not much to do with the double maker's marks GW and ?D. The question is : Who are they and why two maker's marks??? GW is most likely identified, but not ?D.

An addition to your question above: Your questioned mark cannot be the assayer's mark because it is is out of standard and the assayer is already identified.

[Aguest]

:::: It was not made clear until now, you say there are two makers marks and I will take it as fact that these 2 marks are the marks of 2 separate makers from different workshops. :::::: The mark on the far right is another maker and you are absolutely certain. :::::::

[Qrt.S]

Correct, it is a fact that there are two maker's marks of which the location of the GW mark is still unanswered. I'm waiting... Until then I suspect that the object is a "construction" and that could be the explanation for the two maker's marks, but ??????????

[dezeman]

Thank you all for your answers. Your enthusiasm is inspiring and because of that I'm looking at a set of pretty Russian spoons that is for sale..

The owner of the piece will soon post more images and let me tell you this thing looks just gorgeous. The GW is on the bottom of the hanging dish. Another set of all 5 marks is on one of the legs. The 5th mark says GD.

[AG2012]

If GW is on the hanging dish, easily fixed on three chains, then most likely the original was missing and added later as suggested by Qrt.S .
GW was probably not even a silversmith in the same area.
Regards

[dezeman]

If GW is on the hanging dish, easily fixed on three chains, then most likely the original was missing and added later as suggested by Qrt.S .
GW was probably not even a silversmith in the same area.
Regards

However the hanging dish also has the other 4 marks on the 'rim' of the dish, as seen in one of the pictures. On the stand they are all in a row on one of the legs, not seen in the pictures. Both the dish and the stand have the same 5 marks. I figure this was done to prevent someone from seperating the stand and dish and have it re-marked maybe?

[dezeman]

The owner had some issues making an account here but sent me these pictures. Polished and everything. Enjoy.

[Qrt.S]

Excellent, this is what you should have done in the first place (I.e. always show all marks and their location). Unfortunately the new photos made this a bit more complicated.
My opinion is now that GW (to the left) is the original maker's mark (Georg Wulff in Tallinn 1838-1882) and he made the object in 1846. The other mark GD (to the right) belongs to Gottfried Dehio also in Tallinn 1810-1857).

But why two makers' marks? My assumption is that the object was repaired by Dehio (GD) at some point and therefore there are two maker's mark, but ??? Anyway, due to the location of GW (left of the town mark), he is the original maker.

The question is: "why marks allover?" The answer is that according to the former Russian legislation all separate/detachable parts must carry a mark! Actually a good rule!

[artb]

I am the owner of this item. I was lucky enough to find it at a thrift store and knew it was special, but had no idea what it is used for or it's history.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to share your knowledge about this item. Also thank you dezeman for the original post.

Sorry for not photographing all marks from the start, I did not see the ones on the leg until after the first post.

to my understanding now(thanks), this is what the marks represent...

"GW" (left) is the original maker's mark (Georg Wulff in Tallinn 1838-1882)
"3 lions in a shield" is the town Tallinn (Estonia now, Russia at the time)
"Г.К(Cyrillic script)/1846" is the assay master's mark (Hermann Georg Clemens) and date made/assayed.
"84" for 84 zolotniki (87.5% pure silver)
"GD" (right) possible second maker's mark of (Gottfried Dehio in Tallinn 1810-1857)

Is it possible that the item was a collaboration and that the second maker's mark was not added later? I can see how a 5th make could easily be added later on the leg of the stand but on the rim of the bowl the 4 marks seem to be evenly spaced and centered between the two chain connections. Could it be that one maker made the decorative part (snake) and another made the rest?, or that one made only the fuel lamp portion which seems to be made of several pieces and would require some extra care/know how to make it work correctly?

Also any idea what it could be? some suggestions were...oil/incense/wax warmer/burner. I thought it might have a medical purpose since it looks similar to the "Staff of Asclepius"

thanks again for taking the time to comment and share your expertise on the topic, please feel free to ask any questions.

[Juke*]

Hi!

I agree with AG2012 that it is an incense burner where you put the incense in the bowl and had an oil light underneath to burn it. Similar kinds has been used already during the Roman and Byzantine times and thereby a heritage to the Russian empire. These burners were used for instance in the churches.

The snake is a typical decoration during the late empire time so has nothing to do with the medical "Staff of Asclepius". The marks and the style match thereby also.

Co-operation between the silversmiths was typical so it could also be the case here or then it has been repaired, I guess that we will never know.

Regards,
Juke

[Aguest]

::::: A very close examination of the 3 chains and the part where the 3 chains meet and are attached to the hook might give a clue about the repair. :::::
::::: With the item in hand you would be able to closely examine every link and check for any possible repair or mismatch. ::::
::::: If it were my item I would find a jeweler's loupe and have a good look at the 3 chains and the part where the 3 chains meet. :::::
::::: I was wondering if that part where the 3 chains meet is hallmarked? :::::