Help identify this Silver Box

cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Fri May 18, 2007 1:36 pm

Hello,

I've got a small silver box with hinged lid. It measures about 5.5' by 3' in by 1.25'

From what I can gather it might be of Dutch origin of about 1850 vintage. any ideas on what the box is or used for?

There is an inscription on the inside lid, apparently of the owner?

Thanks.

Michael
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Doos · Post by **Doos** » Sat May 19, 2007 8:22 am

Hi,

It's a Dutch tobacco box.
Probably made by C. Rosenburg (1816-1828), Schoonhoven, The Netherlands. It is hard to make out the marks correct. (there should be a "m" inside the minerva's helmet) and a seperate dateletter on the box.
The inscription is the name of the owner.
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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Sat May 19, 2007 10:20 am

The inside bottom of the box has two marks that I can see. the mark on the left is the "lion" and the mark on the right is the "R" with some symbols above that are shown in the image above.

The top inside lid of the box also has two marks, on the left is the minerva, but because of wear or whatever, I cannot discern any lettering of any sort inside the minerva. the other mark seems to be the same "R" symbol that is on the bottom of the box. \

I cannot see any other marks either inside or outside of the box.

Actually, now that I look at it again, there seem to be four lines on both the top and bottom edges of the box. Here is a photo... is that the Date Mark by any chance?

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Post by **admin** » Sat May 19, 2007 10:42 am

Those are benchman's marks, he put them there so he'd put the right lid on the right bottom. The R in your first picture is the maker's mark, the date letter on the box would look like the ones on the chart found here - >
925-1000.com ~ Dutch Hallmarks
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Doos · Post by **Doos** » Sat May 19, 2007 10:46 am

Hi,

The partial mark with the R is the makers mark. I deducted it to be a CR with 3 dots above it (but that is debatable) for Cornelis Pieter Rosenburg.
The lines are probably placeholder markings (so the silversmith remembers the orientation).
A typical dateletter is similar to those in English hallmarks, look at the dutch dateletters list for details.
The lion with the 2 in it is the silver content mark for 833/000 silver.
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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Sat May 19, 2007 10:47 am

I'm going to try and show the marks a little better. Maybe this will help...

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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Sat May 19, 2007 10:51 am

admin wrote:Those are benchman's marks, he put them there so he'd put the right lid on the right bottom. The R in your first picture is the maker's mark, the date letter on the box would look like the ones on the chart found here - >
925-1000.com ~ Dutch Hallmarks

I had seen this page before I made my post. I concluded that my "R" resembled 1851. Nothing else even remotely looked the same to me. Would you agree?
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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:00 am

Doos wrote:Hi,

The partial mark with the R is the makers mark. I deducted it to be a CR with 3 dots above it (but that is debatable) for Cornelis Pieter Rosenburg.
The lines are probably placeholder markings (so the silversmith remembers the orientation).
A typical dateletter is similar to those in English hallmarks, look at the dutch dateletters list for details.
The lion with the 2 in it is the silver content mark for 833/000 silver.

I thought the "R" mark was the dateletter, but you're saying that it is the Makers mark? Hmmm... then I cannot seem to see any datemark.

There doesn't seem to be any question about the lion mark. One mystery solved. Yeah!
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Post by **admin** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:04 am

None of the marks shown is a date letter. Your piece should have one but may not. I have come across a few Dutch 19th cent. pieces that, annoying though it may be, lack this mark.
I could well be wrong, but I think I see another mark on your piece. Let us know.
Regards, Tom

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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:13 am

Tom, thanks for your thoughts.

Just before I saw your reply, I was scrutinizing the box. Depending on the angle you look at it and the light hitting it, I did notice that possible mark which you pointed out...good eye by the way!.

Upon closer inspection it almost looks like tarnish to me, but on the other hand, it might be an extremely faint mark and if that is the case, I'd say it looks like either an "L" or a "7". but it's really faint and hard to discern. Would and "L" or "7" make any sense for a datemark?
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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:15 am

OK... I'm going out on a limb here and going to say that it looks like it is a datemark. the more I look at it, it seems like it is an "L" or "7" and indeed seems to be inside a circle.
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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:22 am

I hope I'm not boring everyone with my idle blather...

If it is a "L" then the date would seem to be 1845 or 1921 based on the page...
http://www.925-1000.com/Fnetherlands_Date_Code.html

But it looks more like the L representing 1921 than the one for 1845 which would be impossible since the inscription is dated 18x2 (x = either a 9 or a 7)
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Post by **admin** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:26 am

Given the style of the piece, 1845 is possible, but probably is later.

925-1000.com ~ Dutch Date Letter
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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:29 am

Arrrgh... I must be dyslexic... it can't be an "L" or a "7" because it's not orientated correctly to be either of those.

Maybe it's a "J" or a remnant of an "R" or maybe it's nothing but tarnish. So hard to tell, even with a magnifying glass.
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Post by **admin** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:38 am

It sure can be frustrating, and to add to the confusion, the inscription date is 1872. W. F. Zijlstra, may have bought the box newly made or have been its 3rd or 4th owner.
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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:42 am

Frustrating yes, but also fun to try and discover the history.

I thought this would be a "slam dunk" to easily find out about the box.

It has such a uniquely Dutch engraving on the top lid that I thought it's identity, date and maker would be very easy to determine.
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Doos · Post by **Doos** » Sun May 20, 2007 2:11 pm

Hi,

One thing that might give a good clue is to see what the worn down letter in the minerva helmet is (the image next to the lion mark).
With all these worn down marks and so many possibilities it is almost impossible to determine who made the piece (and when).
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Athos · Post by **Athos** » Mon May 21, 2007 2:58 pm

Hi Michel,

I think the maker is S.F. Reitsma 1859-1892(Fa. Gebr. Reitsma) from Heerenveen in Friesland his makersmark is a 10 above an R
The townletter in the minera helmet must be an F

Athos
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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:12 pm

Athos, I think you may be correct. I found this image of a piece by SF Reitsma and the engraving in the central panels is almost identical to the piece I have...

What's your opinion?
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cnymike · Post by **cnymike** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:13 pm

I am so embarrassed, I have looked at this box probably hundreds of times, and yet today was the first time I noticed this additional mark, on the lip of the box.

Does it help clarify the origin even though I think Athos hit the nail on the head. I am wondering what the significance of this mark is though...

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