Research question-18th century German Nuremberg Marks

[PennyT]

I recently posted a question in this forum asking for help with the marks on my double-ended folding spoon which was identified as Augsburg 1787-1789, maker Samuel Bardet. I've spent countless hours since trying to research the maker and the design of the spoon in a general sense. What I've found is how little information there seems to be on pre-19th century German silversmiths despite their significant historical contributions to art and design.

The only example of another double-ended folding spoon from pre-19th century I've been able to find is a spoon from the Metropolitan Museum of Art (MET). Their spoon is attributed to late 18th century, German. For marks, they wrote: [1] H in worn cartouche; [2] S in small oval (possibly Nuremberg marks of 18th century.

My question- I've searched pre 19th century marks for Nuremberg as the letter "N". Has the MET improperly attributed this spoon? Since this forum requires a picture, the picture below is the spoon from the MET. Their site allows you to click on the spoon and enlarge it although it was impossible for me to get a good look at the marks.

[Theoderich]

have you a link to the hallmarks?

[PennyT]

I can offer a link to the spoon via the Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York)

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/se ... /120002489

You can enlarge the spoon but the two marks remain blurry. I just think it's odd that an 18th century Nurnberg spoon would have two separate letter marks, neither of which are the letter "N".

The spoon was gifted to the MET over 100 years ago in 1897. The spoon was attributed by the MET based on the information available in 1897. I tried to call the MET today and ask them about the letter marks on the spoon....because I'm audacious. They're closed on Mondays- will call tomorrow. However, I did call the Royal College of Physicians in London. They were very kind and willing to help.

[Theoderich]

It would be very helpful if the MET will make better images of hallmarks.
Can You write the museum - I can help them to identify german
hallmarks.

[PennyT]

The spoon in question is part of a collection of about 303 items gifted to the MET (NY.NY) by Mrs. Samuel P. Avery in 1897. Of those 303 items, about 302 of them are spoons from various countries. Of the 302 spoons, there are 6 to 8 (give or take a few) that the MET attributes to Nuremberg. The MET included a reference to Rosenberg for most of those spoons.

There is one late 17th century spoon (Accession number 97.2.206) that doesn't have the Nuremberg "N" but they reference Rosenberg. The spoon is marked: GM(?) above* (? Nuremberg, c.1664, see Rosenberg, 1911, p.g 556).

There's another late 17th century spoon (accession number 97.2.285) that doesn't have the Nuremberg "N" but they reference Rosenberg. The spoon is marked: 1. Seemingly a tree, Nuremberg mark of Hans Reinhold Muhl, Rosenberg, 1911, no. 3230. 2. Numeral 13 in oblong. 3. Weevil punch French import.

The rest of the Nuremberg spoons in the collection date from 1627 to the 1800's and are all noted by the MET as having the mark of the roman capital N for Nuremberg.

And then there's the double-ended folding spoon in the collection... This spoon has the mark of an H in a cartouche and the mark of an S in a small oval. But unlike the other 2 spoons attributed to Nuremberg without having the Nuremberg N mark, this spoon the MET attributes to Nuremberg but offers no Rosenberg reference or any reference.

Why do I care? I have a double-ended folding spoon that was part of a large collection that belonged to an avid antique medical collector. My spoon was thought to be a medicine spoon made in the last quarter of the 1800's, early 1900's, when all the double-ended folding medicine spoons were being made. I started researching the spoon last summer despite not being able to read the two marks on the spoon. I researched all about medicine spoons which led me to travelling spoons and hoped that I'd find one similar to mine. I hoped that a similar spoon would give me the maker and year my spoon was made but also whether my spoon was actually a medicine spoon or a traveling spoon. I had no luck until I posted my spoon on this forum. The marks are Augsburg 1787-1789, Samuel Bardet. I was quite surprised to learn that the spoon was made over a century earlier than thought. Ever since, I've been searching for examples of a double-ended folding spoon made prior to 1800 and I'm not getting very far.

I've found plenty of folding spoons, folding cutlery, folding knives, folding fork and spoon combination (spork), double-ended spoons that don't fold- all made from the time of Adam and Eve. But a double-ended folding spoon made before 1800? 1. The double-ended folding spoon that the MET attributes to Nuremberg 18th century in question. 2. The Royal College of Physicians, Symons Collection, London- references having a double-ended folding spoon in their collection although the spoon may not have been made in the 1700's. I called them and they said that they would check and let me know.

I've searched museums, auction houses, books... anything that might be of help seems to be in German and not translatable. I don't know why I've only been able to find two other references: a spoon at the MET that might not be from the 1700's and a possibility that the RCP might have one. I don't know where to look. Does anyone have a reference to a double-ended folding spoon made prior to the year 1800, or, can offer a suggestion as a possible research path? I may have to dig a hole and bury this spoon :)

[agphile]

I'm not sure that further research is likely to turn up much in the way of useful information. You may have to accept that you have a rare and possibly unique survivor. To me, that would make it all the more desirable.

As for the original use, without evidence from the period, I would say it is anybody's guess between measuring, medicine, travelling or a combination of those functions. The name now attached to anything similar doesn't guarantee that this is what it was originally called.

That said, it is an interesting and charming item

[PennyT]

I'm not the type of person who stumbles upon rare and unique objects; however, I'm most certainly the type who stumbles upon hard to research objects. Darn pesky spoon. I'll bury it! :)

[agphile]

You're very welcome to use my garden for the interment.

[PennyT]

Thank you, agphile, for your kind offer but your garden will have to wait for my spoon. Another kind member of this forum has directed me to an example of an early double-ended folding spoon. Unfortunately, I was correct in my assumption that my research would take me down a path of German language only websites. It's kind of crazy-making seeing as how hard enough it was to research in English! But it's a start and I'm grateful for the help.

I have an antique Belgium sideboard for your garden in the meantime :)

[blakstone]

As you suggested in the other thread, your spoon was very probably part of a traveling cutlery set (“Reisebesteck”). These certainly existed in the 18th century, and even the late 17th century, though full sets that early — including all the utensils and leather case — are exceedingly rare. Nurnberger Goldschmiedekust, Book 1, vol. 2 illustrates a folding “double-ended” example very similar to yours, though dating from 1715-1719 by Nuremburg maker Friedrich Jobst Wolrab, with its original fittings and case.



As for Samuel Bardet, he was born in Bern, Switzerland around 1719, became a master in Augsburg in 1759, and died in 1800. He was primarily a maker of flatware and other tablewares.

Hope this helps!

Ref:

Helmut Seling, Kunst der Augsburger Goldschmiede 1529-1868 (Munick: Beck, 1980), vol. III, p. 402, maker #2453.

Ralf Schürer, Karin Tebbe, et al., Nurnberger Goldschmiedekust (Nuremburg: GNM, 2007), Book 1, vol. 2, p. 975, plate 705.

[PennyT]

Thank you very much, Blakstone! That was great information. I did a quick look for both your books and didn't see an English version. I hope to go back and find English copies.

This may be asking too much, but, looking at the smaller bowl on the spoon, can you tell the size of it? What would that have been used for? Salt?

[blakstone]

Neither of the books have been translated into English, and probably won't be: they are quite expensive as is, and probably no publisher would be willing to invest the additional cost of both translation and a new printing for books that have a such a narrow scholarly appeal. But I wouldn't be daunted. I've found that with silver reference books, once you learn a couple of dozen key words or so - master, born, died, silver, gold, spoon, apprentice, year, century, widow, son, etc. - you can glean the gist of most entries. Free online translators are handy, too, though certainly not without their limitations.

As for the small end of the spoon, the Nuremburg book doesn't give the dimensions, but it appears to be teaspoon-sized or so. I don't know of any precise and singular use for it, and doubt that it had one. Salt and other conidments almost certainly, as well as a scoop for cheese or fruits.

[PennyT]

I keep a pad of paper by my computer that I write German word translations. It does help but it's a slow way to research especially when I'm interested in more than name, place and year. I'm having trouble with "gestorben" vs "getorben", and if the word "heiratet" means to marry in the sense of two people getting married. The RCP in London has graciously offered to help me learn more, despite my lack of "credentials"- unlike the MET. How do you say pretentious in German? :)

[blakstone]

. . . it's a slow way to research . . .

Let me know if you find a fast one. :)

[Qrt.S]

Es heißt "prätentiös" auf Deutsch :-))))))))))))))


Interesting discussion...

[Theoderich]

I keep a pad of paper by my computer that I write German word translations. It does help but it's a slow way to research especially when I'm interested in more than name, place and year. I'm having trouble with "gestorben" vs "getorben", and if the word "heiratet" means to marry in the sense of two people getting married. The RCP in London has graciously offered to help me learn more, despite my lack of "credentials"- unlike the MET. How do you say pretentious in German? :)

Oh - I am sorry - it
"getorben" is an write error - it means "gestorben"

[Theoderich]

He went to school until he was about 12 - because he completed an apprenticeship (4-6 years). He then went as a journeyman seven years of wandering before he settles down in a city to produce his masterpiece ( 12+6+7 =~ 25).
When he passed, he was a master goldsmith and then citizens. Often he also marries in the same year, so that one can say that the entry in the civil registry or the marriage gebn an indication of when someone became champion.

[dognose]

Hi Penny,

This post has some background on the way of life of a young German silversmith:

http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 38&t=26389

Trev.

[Theoderich]

There is hardly a town in Germany, which has been fully investigated. No reference is complete and accurate. Many cities in Germany are still almost unexplored.
The question now is, how as a researcher in information about the jewelery arrives that are not found in dictionaries. What sources at one's disposal?
In the 19th Century saw for larger cities or address books from 1860 about the address books for regions.
In some cities, you can still find the old guild books. There are some cities the citizens books or books home.
Are also an important source of parish records (baptismal, wedding books, death books). Another source is old council bills, newspaper entries ... .
From all this information, they now try a story to tell of a goldsmith. Thus, one could employ a lifetime - but unfortunately no one paid one.

I forgot - a major source of the work of a goldsmith, is the surviving work with his hallmarks.

[PennyT]

Thank you to everyone for all your contributions to this thread. Thank you members for your help. You guys are a smart bunch and I appreciate every comment, big or small. There's a lot of information and yet at the same time very little.

Thank you, dognose for the link to the article. I read the thread twice but will have to read it a few more times to really absorb it all. The article mentions "journeymen", like Theoderich in his post. For some reason I'm having trouble understanding the concept of this wandering business.

There is hardly a town in Germany, which has been fully investigated. No reference is complete and accurate. Many cities in Germany are still almost unexplored.

I've been corresponding with the assistant curator at the Royal College of Physicians. Just a side not, they are very cool people! My latest email from them stated pretty much the same thing- that there is little expertise on German silversmiths pre 19th century, let alone 18th century. And not just the German silversmiths but also their medical contributions. Some of the questions that we're working on is what differentiates the travel spoon from the medical spoon. They are looking at the size of the bowls on their double-ended medicine spoons compared to the traveling cutlery spoons. Also, how many 18th century medical spoons are in their collection that were made in Germany rather than made in the UK- as well as the possible difference in bowl size in terms of dosage from the same era. I'm not a betting girl but my money is on the RCP's oldest double-ended "medicine" spoons in their collection are going to be German in origin. I'm fascinated with the history of the traveling spoon vs the medicine spoon. And I'm mystified over the lack of specific historical information on Germany- not that I have anything against Mozart, Einstein or the Volkswagen :) Thanks to the help of the RCP and other sources, I'm looking forward to posting whatever information is found.

Off topic...I've been researching a chunk jeweled lead glass lamp shade that's attributed to Austria. The shade has what looks like a crest or symbol from a country- a crown above 3 horizontal stripes. When the light is off, the stripes look like thin red band, a wider white band and another thin red band. I thought they were the colors of Austria but the 3 bands aren't equal in width. When the light is on the colors look like red band, yellow band, red band. I realize that this is a silver forum and I may be wildly overstepping the boundaries with this one. But because there are so many international members and so many silver marks have to do with various country symbolism, I thought this would be the best place to identify the symbol on my lamp. I have lamp people but I'm not looking for any information regarding antique lamps, just a possible id of the symbol (which my lamp people can't help with). So, I'm asking permission to post a picture of the symbol on this website. It would just be the symbol and NOT the lamp. I respect the moderators if they feel that it would be inappropriate. Thank you.