Help me identify these silver hallmarks of cruet.

[elcid51]

Please help me identify these silver hallmarks of cruet.

[Francais]

Welcome to the forum. Please take more and better photos. Your asking for an opinion but not supplying us with the tools. My first impression is that your cruet set is a later copy, but to be sure I would need to see several well lit pictures. It seems a bit odd that someone would copy a form that is not sought after.
The marks I can see well, and I cannot be positive. The maker's mark is supposed to be French, but doesn't succeed. The two pellets refer to allowed variance in quality, but 5 pellets mean nothing. Also it is, in one version, triple struck, something you occasionally see in America, but would be rather inexpert for a French silversmith. The orb and cross, and C? marks look like pseudo marks to me, and I know of neither one being used in France.
It is possible that it is from another country, under French influence, and 18th c, but to judge that we would need to see a number of other photographs of the piece.
Finally you might check all over for very small modern marks.
Maurice

[Qrt.S]

Well Maurice you are off track now. They are French marks. At first glance the crossed orb draw my attention to Sweden. It is of course Uppsala and C is the year mark for 1761. Fine, who's is the maker and where is the town mark? .............total stopppp and darkness, not a clue ???? Maybe Hanau, but no! I had to contact a friend of mine and here is the result:

One have to go to southern France to the region of Languedoc-Roussillon, departement Aude and the town of Carrassonne. There you will find the crossed orb. It is the assayer's mark used before 1775. Now the maker IIC. Unfortunately he is unknown to name........at least to me :-(((((( If somebody knows his name I would appreciate having it. Thank you in advance.

[Francais]

I am not sure where you got this information, but I don't think it is good. Carcassonne is in the Jurisdiction of Perpignan, I don't have a regional book covering Perpignan, if fact when I posted information about a rat mark, one of my favorites, I had to badger a friend into consulting the one copy of the book in the Library of Congress. I do have Helft. Carcassonne is a town that uses CAR in its mark, as do several other towns in the region use their names in their marks. There is no Orb and cross mark similar listed. The only similar mark is a ciborium used after 1784. I suppose someone could see an orb and a cross in it, but it looks nothing like the one in question. There are no uncrowned date marks anywhere in the region. Finally if the mark is known, but the silversmith unknown, it would still have been listed in Helft. I would also think that IIC would be an easy mark to match to a maker, if not only the region, but the town were known.

I am not saying your friend is wrong, but using Occam's Razor an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof. For instance some photos of these marks.
Maurice

[Qrt.S]

I see some similarities with this mark dear Maurice, do you?

[Francais]

Absolutely, and it comes from Beuque & Frapsauce. Does that mean it is right? What are the other marks, decoration? My point is still the same.
I allow for the possibility, but nothing more without some proof.
To make the point: look up whistle tankards, coffin end mourning spoons, the oxidation on Martele, etc, etc.
A better question is why did Helft leave it out?
One friend started counting mistakes in a more recently published book, he stopped at 100.
Perhaps the major decorative arts Museums in the USA published a book riddled with mistakes.
B & F were very good for their day, but their biggest mistake is that the other marks were left out, and of course no photography.
Helft tried to rectify that problem, and pictured the other marks, but of course he couldn't cope with the scale necessary to include many silversmiths who didn't use town or date marks.
I will stand with my original assessment. I will even go a little farther, I think B & F were wrong. If this is your friend's only proof, then I still doubt.
I think that is why the forum is here. Live experts are of more value than dead ones.
All of my objections can be explained away, by seeing the piece itself in better photos, or by showing the same marks on another piece of silver.

[Qrt.S]

Aaaaaa.... you allow...!? And what proofs have you showed other than you only say/write that you disagree? Sorry, that is not enough for me. Now I expect you to show that B&F is incorrect until then I keep my opinion of the origin. Please remember that in these circles "everything is correct until proved to be incorrect" :-))))))))


Meanwhile, it would be interesting to read some other attendants' comments on this topic.

However, I fully agree with you that there is not a single book being 100% correct every silver book has its errors. Therefore a forum like this can correct many misunderstandings. BUT! It will not happen with words only not referring to any known or even previously unknown source. During the years I have learned that words like "I think.." are only an opinion among other opinions. Unfortunately silver marks are not an absolute science, far from it. It is a hobby and that makes it sometimes difficult separate the gold nuggets from the "dirt".

Anyway, I have to admit that French silver marks are not my cup of tea. It was a pure coincident that I stumbled into this thread. The "coincident" was the orb mark that I at first glance put in Sweden, which was a mistake......but suddenly this thread became interesting after discussing it with a friend of mine who is rather good in French marks but not attending 925. I feel more familiar with the Russian and the Scandinavian sites even if I read other interesting threads too.
By the way, the crossed orb mark can be found on page 167 in English Silver Tardy and on page 117 in French Tardy (Poinçons d'Or...)....but as we all know there are some faults in Tardy too..:)))

So dear Maurice, come up with something concrete.

[Francais]

I guess you don't understand the meaning of Occam's Razor, which now explains why you want me to prove a negative. Would you kindly prove I cannot fly faster than a speeding bullet, or that I am not weakened by Kryptonite? Could you tell me where you get the rule: "everything is correct until proved to be incorrect"? Because if that is true, I should add bullets bounce off me like popcorn. As far as references are concerned I pointed out Helft, but my best reference is over 40 years of experience, dealing in silver, not as a hobby, but as a profession. People write into this forum to get information, essentially always in the form of opinion. I doubt they want or need snide remarks or cute attitudes.
The mark you refer to Tardy is the mark I already mentioned, it is a ciborium, and even if French silver marks are not your cup of tea, it should be obvious that it is not the one in the photograph.
Maurice

[Qrt.S]

Dear Maurice,
My point is that you should not demand any proofs from me until you come up with some proofs yourself and you haven't done that. You only claim that it isn't so because you say so. That is not enough. 40 years of experience does not count, facts do! I have nothing more to say.

[Francais]

I try to keep things civil, you might try that tack. You said I was "off track" then you proceed by quoting "a friend" who evidently can't compare marks either. I gave an opinion, I still stand by it. I really hope that is the last you have to say.
Maurice

[elcid51]

Good morning,
in this case I have no doubt about the authenticity (XVIII century) of this cruet also bought in the another house French auction house last November. I attach more photos of the previous best hope for to have your opinion. The coat of arms appears that the city of Brugairolles. Thanks Guido

[oel]

For comparison:

Marks on the cruet set:


Oel.

[Qrt.S]

I thought the discussion had ended but if we start to compare, here is another comparison


The new pictures also show a rather clear picture of a piece typical for the era. In addition, a crowned C was the year mark for Paris of 1743. Some French regions used the Paris year marking system others didn't. It is not excluded that the uncrowned C could be a year mark. Please also keep in mind that we are in the mid 18th century. At that time the marking of silver was what is was as well as the punches. I repeat, kindly come up with a better solution. To only disagree without presenting another suggestion will not do.

[elcid51]

Good evening,
that I own the cruet and I am very interested to understand its origin and age.
I enclose a photo of the coat of arms of the city of Brugairolles which is only 28 km from Carcassonne.
What do you think?
Tanks, Guido

[Francais]

Guido, I realize there is a time difference, I hope to get you an answer before it is too late, but I am fighting a new computer program.
Yes it looks like the right coat of arms, but they rarely follow the rules of color on pieces of silver.
More to come, soon I hope.
Maurice

[Qrt.S]

Indeed more to come. The heraldic colors on engraved coat of arms always follow the following heraldic rules. Only a unskilled lousy engraver would not follow the rules. Below you will find the heraldic color rules.

And what do we see if we compare the red color scheme and the background? Believe it or not but we see three red rhombuses on a silver (white) background. Exactly as on the picture shown by Guido. Time to draw conclusions.

[JayT]

Oel’s ciborium mark looks to me like the recount mark (poinçon de recense) in use from 16 August — 16 November 1819 for the east of France. I don't think this ciborium mark is related to identification issues with the cruet stand.

[elcid51]

Thank Qrt.S,
I attach more detailed picture of the emblem of the cruet and the link on the stems of the French region of Aude.
Some other member of the forum can help me?
Many thanks,
Guido



Link: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoriale_ ... ell%27Aude

[Francais]

I usually try not to address responses to particular people, unless confusion demands it. I think it makes things personal, while I presume the purpose of this forum is to give information.
Guido, thanks for the pictures, it would have been helpful to see them earlier. I presume you are using a translator, as the sentences about the auction house don’t make sense in English.
You can send me a private message in Italian, as I lived there briefly and should still be able to read it. In any case I think you wanted to say that you are sure it is 18th c. because it was sold at a French auction with some other piece. I can say that is no assurance to me, as it depends on the knowledge of the expert they used, who evidently wasn’t able to identify the maker from his own area.
Having said that, I don’t see anything wrong with the piece itself. Of course there is nothing like holding a piece in your hand, but if I saw the pictures before looking at the marks, I would have said it was 18th. c.
Oel, I recognize that ciborium mark from another thread, but can’t remember which, could you remind me, although I don’t think it is pertinent.
The comparison of the maker’s mark shows that it is not the same mark, the cartouche is significantly different, as are the size spacing etc. However the general style is too close to be a coincidence. So the differences are either the result of a poor drawing, or they are marks of the same maker, but from different periods, or one is a forged copy of the other. I do have an explanation for the thing on top of the mark, which I will call a grape leaf. In Helft there is a maker’s mark from Carcassonne from 1785-81 and another from around the same period in Perpignan (city) with the same object. Curiously the one item also has a grape vine leaf (I think) a discharge mark of the neighboring Jurisdiction of Toulouse. So that is probably where Beuque got the Carcasssonne attribution, of course he says the maker worked around 1775.
As for the ciborium mark what I didn’t say is it is Bernier period mark, they started so late in 1783 that they essentially started in 1784. They are usually dated with an 84, ….,89 an example is found here: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... nan#p84058
I could never find any relation between the marks and the towns, and don’t remember anyone else recognizing any relationship. Meaning they may have been assigned randomly or at least without meaning or significance. The town mark for Carcassonne is the ciborium, usually with a date, not “before 1775 “, not “1743” not “ mid 18th century”. Of course the mark on the piece is not a ciborium. I could guess at what the orb cross mark is, and also the C. But I have written someone in France to see if there is any mention of it in L'orfèvrerie en Roussillon: les orfèvres de la juridiction de Perpignan du XIIIe au XIXe siècle by Louis Ausseil. I am not sure my contact is really interested in the subject, so I may not get an answer. There are copies in the library of Congress in DC, Harvard, Princeton, Toronto, LA, NY, Cambridge, Munchen, and Den Haag. So if we have a volunteer in one of those cities, could you share your intention to check?
There is a second book, which may or may not be of any use.
L'orfèvrerie en Languedoc du XIIe au XVIIIe siècle byJean Thuile, which seems to be present everywhere except my library and my city.
If the volunteer doesn’t read French, just contact me.
Finally it pains me to say this, but the comments about crowned C, Paris date marks etc, I found of no use whatsoever. It amazes me when someone says they don’t really know the subject, and then sets about to prove that he doesn’t. I will ignore entirely his comments in the future.
I also found the last two sentences about what “will do” insulting. I do not believe he makes the rules of this forum, and if he ever starts making the rules, I will quit contributing.
Guido, I will check my books on collections, but I doubt they will help. I do have one other suggestion if we cannot come up with a copy of the books above.

Maurice

[Francais]

Guido,
There is not much there about the coat of arms, except if you click on the shield you will see 2 different color versions. Some time ago a lot of French towns adopted or used existing coats of arms in a country wide project. Some really existed, some I suspect were made from whole cloth, and some I think used a local noble's arms. I have at least one piece of silver with a known coat of arms of a major city in France from 1642, but I think that is an exception. I often doubt French arms, personal and otherwise, the rules were quite loose as to their use. Here you will see how exact the hatching system is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatching_system . I have my doubts about whether the arms are original, or contemporary to the piece, but I would have to do some comparisons, the only thing that bothers me is the bottom. It would be interesting to see if the mayor's office knows the origin of the arms.
But no matter what the color or age, the location is certainly around Carcassonne.
Maurice